Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3747261 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44900 on: February 22, 2023, 08:02:16 AM »
Why can't you see that your consciously driven ability to "give it a moment's thought" undoes your reasoning?

Only if you stick fixedly to the everyday understanding of how our minds work.  This position would raise no eyebrows in a casual exchange with some bloke down the pub.  But you should know better by now, having had more subtle insights from science into how mind works explained to you about three thousand times.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44901 on: February 22, 2023, 08:52:30 AM »
No. Apparently you're completely incapable of putting together a coherent explanation as to why you think it might, let alone an argument that would convince anybody else with the slightest grasp of critical thinking. As I was pointing out, even the phrases you rely on so heavily, like "conscious control of thought processes", don't make any sense by themselves, so even if you wrapped then up in a proper logical structure, it would still be gibberish.
Do you not realise that there is an undeniable link between the ability to perform "critical thinking" and "conscious control of thought processes"?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44902 on: February 22, 2023, 09:07:02 AM »
It seems to me that Alan and his ilk are Christians for whom 'faith' alone is never enough, possibly because they recognise that what they have faith in: such as someone who allegedly can walk on water and not stay dead, are ridiculous claims to take seriously in this day and age. They want their 'faith' to somehow appear rational so they deny, distort, ignore or subvert any knowlege that doesn't include a gap into which they can insert their 'God'. So, instead, they make stuff up, such as the laughable notion of 'souls' interacting with brains or illogical ideas about 'free will' and yet they seem surprised when others point out the problems, but it seems that their attachment to these bizarre ideas has also become a matter of faith for them - hence, on these matters, they are impervious to reason or logic.

As someone who has cancer, will never be free of cancer and who has spent the last two and a bit years gratefully coping with treatments that have been intrusive and wearing, both surgically and chemically, I find Alan's tale about attributing his friend's recovery from cancer to prayer particularly silly and thoughtless since it demeans the efforts of the wonderful people who directly care for me, and all the behind the scenes work and development in cancer care and treatment - just 10 years ago anyone presenting with prostate cancer in the same way that I did would not have survived for the length of time I already have after diagnosis, and I hope to survive a little longer too.

So, Alan, I say bollocks to the prayer pish - cancer in real life isn't like that, as I well know: if only it were that simple!     
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 09:20:09 AM by Gordon »

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44903 on: February 22, 2023, 09:13:53 AM »
Do you not realise that there is an undeniable link between the ability to perform "critical thinking" and "conscious control of thought processes"?

Sometimes I'm really not sure that you're even being serious. The answer is, of course, no, because "critical thinking" actually has a meaning and "conscious control of thought processes" is gibberish. As I was pointing out (are you even reading the posts you 'reply' to?) it's a type of bullshit that should really have its own term. Something that is presented as, and clearly meant to be taken as, an obvious and intuitive statement, but totally collapses with the slightest feather-light contact with rational thought.

I mean seriously, what do you think it actually means? How can we consciously control our own thought process? By consciously thinking about every thought before we think it? Can you not see a tiny hint of a problem with that?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44904 on: February 22, 2023, 10:09:45 AM »
AB,

Quote
It is God who can claim credit - not me

But in reply 4480 you clearly implied that you thought your and your wife’s praying had had some effect on your friend’s recovery: “Just one recent example of praying for other people - a close friend of ours was diagnosed with liver cancer in October 2021 and given a few weeks to live.  My wife and I prayed for a miracle.  Our friend is now enjoying a full lifestyle after the damaged liver somehow regenerated and she is currently thinking about becoming a Christian.

(You also made a series of other prayer-related claims and statements that I rebutted only for you to ignore he rebuttals but hey-ho – it’s “never explain, never apologise” for you eh?).

So if you’re not taking the credit, why did you bother mentioning the (apparently irrelevant) praying at all? And how in any case would that work - would saving your friend just have splipped your god’s mind but for you reminding Him of her plight?; had He decided it was best that she die but you managed to change His mind about that? What?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44905 on: February 22, 2023, 10:20:50 AM »
AB,

Quote
Why can't you see that your consciously driven ability to "give it a moment's thought" undoes your reasoning?

Because there’s no such thing as “consciously driven ability” in the way you imply.

Quote
Do you not realise that there is an undeniable link between the ability to perform "critical thinking" and "conscious control of thought processes"?

No, because "conscious control of thought processes" is just mindless idiocy for the reasons that have been explained to you countless times without even an attempt at rebuttal. Even if such a thing did exist moreover it would itself involve “thought processes” which – according to your irrational speculation – would themselves require another layer of “conscious control” and so on forever through infinite regress.     
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 10:39:55 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44906 on: February 22, 2023, 10:40:18 AM »
AB,

But in reply 4480 you clearly implied that you thought your and your wife’s praying had had some effect on your friend’s recovery: “Just one recent example of praying for other people - a close friend of ours was diagnosed with liver cancer in October 2021 and given a few weeks to live.  My wife and I prayed for a miracle.  Our friend is now enjoying a full lifestyle after the damaged liver somehow regenerated and she is currently thinking about becoming a Christian.

(You also made a series of other prayer-related claims and statements that I rebutted only for you to ignore he rebuttals but hey-ho – it’s “never explain, never apologise” for you eh?).

So if you’re not taking the credit, why did you bother mentioning the (apparently irrelevant) praying at all? And how in any case would that work - would saving your friend just have splipped your god’s mind but for you reminding Him of her plight?; had He decided it was best that she die but you managed to change His mind about that? What?

In heaven, Alan's God, the angels and the saved souls have a show called Prayer Idol, and they hold a vote on what to do on each prayer request. Sometimes Alan's God is a bit Craig Revel Horwood, sometimes he's more Motse Mabusi.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44907 on: February 22, 2023, 10:51:13 AM »
NS,

Quote
In heaven, Alan's God, the angels and the saved souls have a show called Prayer Idol, and they hold a vote on what to do on each prayer request. Sometimes Alan's God is a bit Craig Revel Horwood, sometimes he's more Motse Mabusi.

Ah, it all makes sense now (though wouldn’t Alan’s god be more of a Simon Cowell figure perhaps?). Just think - if Alan had just explained that in the first place he’d have been saved all that effort of posting the same argument-free assertion all these thousands of times.   
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God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44908 on: February 22, 2023, 10:52:03 AM »
NS,

Ah, it all makes sense now (though wouldn’t Alan’s god be more of a Simon Cowell figure perhaps?). Just think - if Alan had just explained that in the first place he’d have been saved all that effort of posting the same argument-free assertion all these thousands of times.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44909 on: February 22, 2023, 11:44:43 AM »
Sometimes I'm really not sure that you're even being serious. The answer is, of course, no, because "critical thinking" actually has a meaning and "conscious control of thought processes" is gibberish. As I was pointing out (are you even reading the posts you 'reply' to?) it's a type of bullshit that should really have its own term. Something that is presented as, and clearly meant to be taken as, an obvious and intuitive statement, but totally collapses with the slightest feather-light contact with rational thought.

I mean seriously, what do you think it actually means? How can we consciously control our own thought process? By consciously thinking about every thought before we think it? Can you not see a tiny hint of a problem with that?
You seem to be implying that "rational thought" and "critical thinking" can somehow be automated processes being performed without any form of conscious control.  So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44910 on: February 22, 2023, 11:46:43 AM »
I don't know the answer, but I suspect it would be your brain. Once it has thought it through you are the first to know!
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44911 on: February 22, 2023, 11:48:32 AM »
You seem to be implying that "rational thought" and "critical thinking" can somehow be automated processes being performed without any form of conscious control.

You make decisions in your dreams, yet you are unaware that they have been made until you awaken. Rational thought and critical thinking happen all the time in the background of our brains, although they are more often drowned out in the background by more simplistic processes.

Quote
So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?

Other automated processes - the internal algorithms developed over the course of your life that make up your individual tendencies.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44912 on: February 22, 2023, 12:08:01 PM »
AB,

Because there’s no such thing as “consciously driven ability” in the way you imply.

No, because "conscious control of thought processes" is just mindless idiocy for the reasons that have been explained to you countless times without even an attempt at rebuttal. Even if such a thing did exist moreover it would itself involve “thought processes” which – according to your irrational speculation – would themselves require another layer of “conscious control” and so on forever through infinite regress.   
The problem you have with the "infinite regress" is in presuming that your conscious thoughts are defined by physical reactions to prior events.  Can you not envisage that thoughts are intimately bound up and derived from whatever comprises your conscious awareness?  If you could see that conscious awareness is awareness of reactions rather than the reactions themselves, and that an act of will can be generated from within your conscious awareness you will have no need for infinite regress.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44913 on: February 22, 2023, 12:08:51 PM »
You seem to be implying that "rational thought" and "critical thinking" can somehow be automated processes being performed without any form of conscious control.  So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?

Off you go into pointless repetition again. I see no reason to answer this question yet again, because I've already explained it to you more times than I can remember (so have several other people) and you (yet again) completely ignored the point I was making. In the context of a logical argument, vague or undefined terms are useless and render the whole argument meaningless - even if they are placed within a valid logical framework. Your problem is you don't seem to know how to do either, so you end up with nothing but vacuous hand-waving.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44914 on: February 22, 2023, 12:11:45 PM »
The problem you have with the "infinite regress" is in presuming that your conscious thoughts are defined by physical reactions to prior events.  Can you not envisage that thoughts are intimately bound up and derived from whatever comprises your conscious awareness?  If you could see that conscious awareness is awareness of reactions rather than the reactions themselves, and that an act of will can be generated from within your conscious awareness you will have no need for infinite regress.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44915 on: February 22, 2023, 12:14:17 PM »
AB,

Quote
You seem to be implying that "rational thought" and "critical thinking" can somehow be automated processes being performed without any form of conscious control.  So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?

I’ve explained to you several times why your “what exactly” question is misplaced, most recently in Reply 44847. Here it is again as you just ignored it last time:

“There’s so much wrong with your approach still that it’s hard to know where to start. As clearly as I can though:

First, you need to grasp the concept of the burden of proof. It’s your assertion that consciousness as a natural phenomenon is “impossible” so it’s your job to justify the claim. You’ve either not bothered with the attempt or have only expressed your incredulity (“but how…?” etc). It’s not the job of others to tell you how consciousness works – it’s your job to show that it must work supernaturally.

Second, even without an explanation in detail the naturalistic model is the default for a reason. And that reason is that the only knowledge we’ve ever obtained is known to be knowledge at all (rather than just guessing) because it’s been verified by naturalistic means. That’s not to say that there could never be non-naturalistic phenomena (whatever that would even mean) but it does mean that you need a very strong reason to abandon the default paradigm. And, so far at least, not only do you not have a very strong reason to do that – you have reason at all.

Third, even if you could address points 1 & 2, still all you’d have is “OK, consciousness is not a function of natural laws and forces then”. That though would tell you absolutely nothing whatsoever about what it might be instead. Just inserting “God” as your answer with no evidence at all to support the claim is epistemically equivalent to saying it’s "u87to7ty". It’s just white noise.

Fourth, although our understanding so far of consciousness is far from complete we make further inroads into it all the time. Here for example is an article that describes the current two front-running contenders (global neuronal workspace (GNW), and Integrated information theory (IIT)).

Maybe one of them will turn out to be correct. Maybe neither of them will. Who can possibly say? The point though is that a problem being a hard one is not a good reason to throw up our hands and exclaim, “It must be magic then”. To the contrary, the hardness of the problem is exactly a good reason to keep working at it until we obtain a verifiable answer.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-consciousness/   

Fifth, as I keep explaining to you (and you keep ignoring or misrepresenting) whether we have partial answers or no answers at all at this time doesn’t help you. A "don’t know" is still a "don’t know" whichever way you look at it, and your, “aha – in that case I do know" is just very, very bad thinking. If you want to demonstrate that you do know something the absence of a different answer doesn’t help you at all – for your claim to be taken seriously you still have all your work to do to justify it.

Apart from all that though…”

No doubt you’ll ignore it all again but there it is nonetheless.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44916 on: February 22, 2023, 12:21:01 PM »
AB,

Quote
The problem you have with the "infinite regress" is in presuming that your conscious thoughts are defined by physical reactions to prior events.  Can you not envisage that thoughts are intimately bound up and derived from whatever comprises your conscious awareness?  If you could see that conscious awareness is awareness of reactions rather than the reactions themselves, and that an act of will can be generated from within your conscious awareness you will have no need for infinite regress.


I don’t now what’s wrong with you Alan, I really don’t. You’ve had this nonsense falsified countless times here and never once have you even tried to rebut those falsifications - preferring instead just to repeat endlessly exactly the same mistakes that have been falsified over and over again.

What then would be the point of explaining it to you once more only for you to repeat the same mistakes on which you always rely? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44917 on: February 22, 2023, 12:21:36 PM »
The problem you have with the "infinite regress" is in presuming that your conscious thoughts are defined by physical reactions to prior events.

It's not a presumption, it's a deduction from the available evidence. We have observable phenomena (brains) which are sufficient to explain the activity, and which do not evince unexplained gaps in the process. It does not, in itself, discount a separate source of consciousness, but it does discount the need for one.

Quote
Can you not envisage that thoughts are intimately bound up and derived from whatever comprises your conscious awareness?

Of course, but there's no need for it, and it would raise other questions: where is this 'disembodied' consciousness, how does it interact with the physical, where is the evidence of activity in the brain which is not prompted by other physical phenomena that would be evidence of this consciousness? It's not that we can't imagine it, it's that it isn't necessary, and raises questions which don't have any obvious answers, and therefore is a less likely explanation.

Quote
If you could see that conscious awareness is awareness of reactions rather than the reactions themselves, and that an act of will can be generated from within your conscious awareness you will have no need for infinite regress.

If you could explain why infinite regress was any sort of problem that'd be great. If you could just appreciate that the complexity of the brain can give rise to the wonder of human consciousness then we could do away with trying to shoe-horn in ghosts in the machine.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44918 on: February 22, 2023, 12:29:25 PM »
Off you go into pointless repetition again. I see no reason to answer this question yet again ...
You have never given a rational well thought out answer to my knowledge.
So I have to ask again:
So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44919 on: February 22, 2023, 12:55:38 PM »
You have never given a rational well thought out answer to my knowledge.

Literal LOL!

So I have to ask again:
So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?

Mindless, meaningless repetition again. You've never properly defined 'conscious control' and from you have said about it, you might as well have asked: "So if you take away the god-magic, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?"

If you want to clam that there is, or must be, some god-magic, then it's your job to come up with a sound, not just valid, argument that contains only terms that you have properly defined, not my job to show that your claim is wrong (burden of proof).
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44920 on: February 22, 2023, 01:45:55 PM »
AB,

Quote
You have never given a rational well thought out answer to my knowledge.
So I have to ask again:
So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?

Ah, so now we have someone who actually has never given “a rational well thought out answer” to anything telling the person who does give “a rational well thought out answer” to pretty much everything that he hasn’t provided ‘’a rational well thought out answer” to anything.

What a topsy-turvy alternate reality place your head must be Alan.

For what it’s worth, asking “So if you take away the conscious control, what precisely does ensure that your thoughts are rational and critically thought out?” is equivalent to me asking you: “So if you take away the invisible pixies holding stuff down with very thin strings, what precisely does ensure that gravity works?

Yet again, you’re committing the fallacy of begging the question when you assert that “if you take away the conscious control”. The “conscious control” as you envisage it is unnecessary, unqualified, logically impossible and - after all the unanswered rebuttals to it you’ve received – frankly idiotic.

If you understand nothing else, try to understand this at least. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44921 on: February 22, 2023, 03:27:02 PM »
What a topsy-turvy alternate reality place your head must be Alan.

It's also worth noting that, beyond anything that has been said here, our Alan doesn't seem to have the first idea of the magnitude of the task he's set himself. In comparison, somebody as eminent and qualified in science, mathematics, and logic as Roger Penrose attempted the task of showing that the conscious mind must be non-algorithmic (see The Emperor's New Mind, which is a fascinating book, if you're not maths-phobic, for other reasons) and basically utterly failed to convince almost everybody in the relevant disciplines. Despite this, Alan thinks he can take on the far, far more ambitious task of showing that it is not only non-algorithmic but that it requires some sort of god to get involved. What's more, he thinks he can do so without even being arsed to spend some of his time learning about basic logic and the avoidance of obvious fallacies.

Comical doesn't really quite cover it.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44922 on: February 22, 2023, 07:00:11 PM »

If you understand nothing else, try to understand this at least.
What I do understand is that God has given us all the freedom to choose our own destiny.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44923 on: February 22, 2023, 07:10:29 PM »
What I do understand is that God has given us all the freedom to choose our own destiny.
What freedom did my cousin who died at 6 hours old have in choosing 'their destiny'?

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44924 on: February 22, 2023, 07:24:28 PM »
What I do understand is that God has given us all the freedom to choose our own destiny.

You may believe that but you seem to be incapable of even coherently explaining why you believe it (blind faith aside), let alone actually understanding what it is, how it works, or why anybody else should take the idea seriously.
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