Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3752037 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45925 on: April 21, 2023, 09:09:13 AM »
Yep - Alan's attempts to explain this 'soul' and how it functions and integrates with our biology is plainly nonsense.

Unless he can make some sense of his 'soul' notion, and he hasn't, then I'd say that supernatural bollocks is an apt description.
Blah, blah, blah....just one unjustified positive assertion after another.

Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45926 on: April 21, 2023, 09:49:49 AM »
The point is that from a materialist point of view, the resurrection would involve merely a re arrangement of the atoms to replicate what there was before death occurred.  But there is more to human life than a specific arrangement of atoms.

The truth is that death of a human being is not merely a re arrangement of the atoms in the biological machine of the body - it is the departure of the human soul from the material body.
Wouldn't it be better to use the word, 'spirit' for the non physical part of a person? The Hebrew word usually translated soul (nephesh) actually refers to a living being.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45927 on: April 21, 2023, 10:39:13 AM »
Blah, blah, blah....just one unjustified positive assertion after another.

Not really - I'd say I was making a justified critique of the 'soul' notion as advanced by Alan. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45928 on: April 21, 2023, 12:17:35 PM »
Gabriella,

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Sure - by knowledge I meant the knowledge to be able to establish whether something supernatural exists or don't exist.

But before you can even consider that you’d need to explain what “supernatural” means and to demonstrate its existence at all. Only once you’ve done that could you trouble yourself with what populates it.

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There is no method to do that. The supernatural element is a core part of most religions. So in the realm of possibilities such as the supernatural, religions have various particular takes on the issues involved, and people may find something of value in one or all of them or they may not. That is the aesthetic part. There are very few hard facts in religion, none as far a s I know in relation to a supposed supernatural entity. There is belief and faith without objective evidence to make it fact.

Which is fine except that very often religious people will tell you that the existence of a supernatural god is a “hard fact”. 

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Your example about homosexuality - yes it exists as do many other desires or actions or behaviours. People have opinions on abstract concepts as well as day to day actions and behaviours. Sometimes / many times (these opinions are expressed through people's various different interpretations of religions using religious language with reference to a supernatural entity. Sometimes these opinions are expressed without reference to a religion or the supernatural, since we can see that the people who do not follow a particular religion or believe in the supernatural, still have an opinion on the morality of behaviour and try to create a social norm around it using other social mechanisms - culture, politics, laws etc

That’s not the point though. The point is the (supposed) authority that follows reifying an authoritative god claim into a hard fact claim. In “the realm of possibilities” a god that might be that might have rules on eg homosexuality is perhaps a matter of aesthetics. Jump from that to hard facts territory though (ie a god that is and that does have rules on eg homosexuality) and “god hates gays” is a much a fact as gravity is a fact (witness Vlad’s dullard assertions of objective morality for example), and so those who think that will tend to behave accordingly.       


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I am not sure where I have indicated an objective truth from my experiences as opposed to a belief. Which bit of what I wrote are you referring to? An objective truth is one I can demonstrate. I haven't claimed I can demonstrate the existence of God but I believe in the existence of God because of how my brain has interpreted subjective experiences.

You referred to a god handing down his rules via an angel. Either you think this god and angel are allegorical characters (akin to the hare and the tortoise) or you think they actually exist(ed) regardless of the stories told about them. I thought you believed the latter, but if instead you think that god/angel are epistemically equivalent to hare/tortoise then well and good.   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 12:52:18 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45929 on: April 21, 2023, 12:20:05 PM »
Spud,

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Wouldn't it be better to use the word, 'spirit' for the non physical part of a person? The Hebrew word usually translated soul (nephesh) actually refers to a living being.

Wouldn't it be better to demonstrate that there is such a thing as "non physical" at all before troubling yourself with its nomenclature? 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45930 on: April 21, 2023, 01:02:47 PM »
Vlad,

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science has a code which puts limits on it.

Yes, science is capable of investigating only that which its methods and tools are capable of investigating. It’s also though the only means we have so far reliably to validate our understanding of the world. You for example have been asked countless times how you would propose to bridge the epistemic gap from subjective experience to objective fact by some other means but you always run away rather than even try to answer that.   

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Resurrection is something in black swan territory…

No it isn’t. A black swan is a physical object, capable of being recognised and identified by the same means we recognise and identify white swans once one turned up. A resurrection (in the miracle sense) on the other hand would be a different category of experience, requiring a different means of recognition and validation entirely. 

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…since it can be described as a particular rearrangement of matter. We can not say that the specific arrangement is impossible imv.

A “different arrangement of matter” is one thing, but you’ve conveniently left out here the “it’s magic innit” part you’d need to do the rearranging.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45931 on: April 21, 2023, 01:33:41 PM »
Sriram,

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An experience is an experience.... and if there are objective methods by which the experience can be had by others also, it is evidence of an objective reality.

No. lots of people claim to have experienced alien abduction. Does that therefore mean they were all abducted by aliens?

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People do experience (I personally have) something beyond the material…

You’re overreaching again here. You may believe you experienced something “beyond the material” but that narrative is incoherent unless you can demonstrate first that there even is a “beyond the material” to be experienced   

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…and something which provides solace and peace and also provides real solutions to problems almost magically.

That’s a different matter. There are various techniques that provide solace and peace, but you have no grounds to assume them to be “beyond the material”.
 
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This is real and people across the world in all generations have experienced it.

What’s real – the solace and part part? I agree; the “beyond the material part”? You’re not even close to establishing that.   

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Most people have also experienced the presence of some sort of an entity (not necessarily visually).

An experience and the explanatory narrative for it are not necessarily the same thing.

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Now...whether this entity or presence is actually Allah or Brahman or the supreme almighty itself or some other form of higher level consciousness can be argued.

No without establishing first the existence of any of these deities it isn’t.

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That is however irrelevant to the experience and is of only philosophical importance.

Again, there’s no reason to think “the experience” wasn’t a physiological one though.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45932 on: April 21, 2023, 03:17:52 PM »
Vlad,

Yes, science is capable of investigating only that which its methods and tools are capable of investigating. It’s also though the only means we have so far reliably to validate our understanding of the world.
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Alas it has little to tell us what we ought to do and is rather situation pending in terms of explaining consciousness.   
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No it isn’t. A black swan is a physical object, capable of being recognised and identified by the same means we recognise and identify white swans once one turned up. A resurrection (in the miracle sense) on the other hand would be a different category of experience, requiring a different means of recognition and validation entirely{/quote] resurrection would be the arrangement of matter from what is known as the non living state to the living state(which after all is how living states come about) That is undoubtebly a physical process. 
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A “different arrangement of matter” is one thing, but you’ve conveniently left out here the “it’s magic innit” part you’d need to do the rearranging.
Not necessarily, resurrection events could be determined from the initial state of the universe.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45933 on: April 21, 2023, 03:23:40 PM »
Vlad,

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Alas it has little to tell us what we ought to do and is rather situation pending in terms of explaining consciousness.

Relevance?   

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resurrection would be the arrangement of matter from what is known as the non living state to the living state(which after all is how living states come about) That is undoubtebly a physical process.

Which has nothing to do with your black swan category error.
 
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Not necessarily, resurrection events could be determined from the initial state of the universe.

So now you’re claiming a non-miraculous resurrection? Doesn’t that rather blow a hole in your "resurrection = proof of a supernatural god” schtick?   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 03:29:56 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45934 on: April 21, 2023, 03:36:48 PM »
Vlad,

Relevance?   

Which has nothing to do with your black swan category error.
 
So now you’re claiming a non-miraculous resurrection? Doesn’t that rather blow a hole in your "resurrection =proof of a supernatural god” schtick?
Not really...Why for instance that particular initial state and not one of the host of others? There has to be something that determines that initial state in a er, deterministic universe.

Also, I did say yesterday that a scientifically observed resurrection would not be proof of a supernatural element. How could it be, science doesn't do God. I never had a resurrection = proof of a supernatural god schtick. You seem to have ignored that post tut tut.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45935 on: April 21, 2023, 03:49:00 PM »
Vlad,

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Not really...Why for instance that particular initial state and not one of the host of others? There has to be something that determines that initial state in a er, deterministic universe.

You seem to be replying to a different post here? (But yes, aside perhaps from the quantum “the universe” does appear to be deterministic in character.)

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Also, I did say yesterday that a scientifically observed resurrection would not be proof of a supernatural element. How could it be, science doesn't do God. I never had a resurrection = proof of a supernatural god schtick. You seem to have ignored that post tut tut.

You’re flip-flopping badly here. Your schtick hitherto has been “miraculous resurrection = god” (indeed you’ve also told us that, without a resurrection, the central plank of your faith collapses). Now instead to you seem to want to posit a non-miraculous, natural resurrection – in which case, what need have you for “god” in that process?

It would help if you’d decide which horse you’re backing here.   
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45936 on: April 21, 2023, 03:56:30 PM »
Spud,

Wouldn't it be better to demonstrate that there is such a thing as "non physical" at all before troubling yourself with its nomenclature?
I doubt whether that will achieve very much on a discussion site as very little can be demonstrated when it come to spiritual/religious matters. Most of the language used is of an allegorical (mythos) nature to try to convey what is basically beyond rational communication because it's an inner 'experience'.  The language used often cannot be taken literally otherwise it leads to what you have implied, that 'non physical' is a 'thing'. However, I think that those who are using 'religious' terms should give some idea what they understand the meaning to be, particularly as the English words used are old best fit translations of an even older foreign language.  For example the Hebrew word 'neshama' meant 'breath' often translated as Germanic 'soul' (essence of man) and the Hebrew 'ruwach' (air) is translated as Latin 'Spirit' (air).  I suspect that the analogy is that air represents the invisible breath of God which is man's essence and that he should be in'spired' to be identified with this before he ex'spires'.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45937 on: April 21, 2023, 04:35:27 PM »
Hi Ekim,

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I doubt whether that will achieve very much on a discussion site as very little can be demonstrated when it come to spiritual/religious matters. Most of the language used is of an allegorical (mythos) nature to try to convey what is basically beyond rational communication because it's an inner 'experience'.  The language used often cannot be taken literally otherwise it leads to what you have implied, that 'non physical' is a 'thing'. However, I think that those who are using 'religious' terms should give some idea what they understand the meaning to be, particularly as the English words used are old best fit translations of an even older foreign language.  For example the Hebrew word 'neshama' meant 'breath' often translated as Germanic 'soul' (essence of man) and the Hebrew 'ruwach' (air) is translated as Latin 'Spirit' (air).  I suspect that the analogy is that air represents the invisible breath of God which is man's essence and that he should be in'spired' to be identified with this before he ex'spires'.

All fine as a discussion of semantics, but the point rather I think is that religious people so often also jump from allegorical imagery that illustrates an experienced feeling or emotion to “therefore a causal objective fact about the world that’s true for everyone”. That’s the problem – the leap from the subjective narrative to the objective fact with no logical bridge to get them there.
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45938 on: April 21, 2023, 05:19:35 PM »
Hi Ekim,

All fine as a discussion of semantics, but the point rather I think is that religious people so often also jump from allegorical imagery that illustrates an experienced feeling or emotion to “therefore a causal objective fact about the world that’s true for everyone”. That’s the problem – the leap from the subjective narrative to the objective fact with no logical bridge to get them there.
I think Alan said earlier that humans are in the position where we aren't able to demonstrate the existence of the afterlife, that we need to be given that proof somehow. I think he then said that the resurrection of Christ is that proof. I've been following this thread for a few days and I recall that Maeght said the NT is not enough evidence to support the claim of the resurrection. I was thinking of chipping in at that point but then Vlad said the epistles mention it. I was going to quote 1 Corinthians 15 which lists the people to whom Jesus appeared, including 500 at once. So I would go down that route to demonstrate that some part of us (the spirit or soul) is immortal (though Jesus said we should fear the one who is able to destroy the soul).
So I will go with the NT as the demonstration of the resurrection and thereby the soul/spirit.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45939 on: April 21, 2023, 05:35:48 PM »
Vlad,

You seem to be replying to a different post here? (But yes, aside perhaps from the quantum “the universe” does appear to be deterministic in character.)

You’re flip-flopping badly here. Your schtick hitherto has been “miraculous resurrection = god” (indeed you’ve also told us that, without a resurrection, the central plank of your faith collapses). Now instead to you seem to want to posit a non-miraculous, natural resurrection – in which case, what need have you for “god” in that process?

It would help if you’d decide which horse you’re backing here.
Not really a miracle is an act of divine intervention so it doesn't really matter where God intervenes or operates from.
The problems arise for you though for you seem to agree there is an initial state but this runs contrary to your appeals to infinite regressions, infinitely old universes and I would imagine many of your objections to the Kalam cosmological argument though perhaps not the one's I have with it Ha Ha.

I have already demonstrated where you were badly wrong about my schtick and you seemed to have changed the goalpost from resurrection to miraculous resurrection.
I already pointed out that if resurrection is the rearrangement of matter then it is a possible technology. Science though is never going to be able to distinguish between a natural resurrection and a miraculous one because it does not do God.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 05:38:14 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45940 on: April 21, 2023, 05:48:57 PM »
Spud,

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I think Alan said earlier that humans are in the position where we aren't able to demonstrate the existence of the afterlife, that we need to be given that proof somehow. I think he then said that the resurrection of Christ is that proof.

In a rare moment of clarity Vlad has already pointed out that even if a resurrection had been shown to have happened that wouldn’t necessarily imply proof of a god, but ok…

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I've been following this thread for a few days and I recall that Maeght said the NT is not enough evidence to support the claim of the resurrection. I was thinking of chipping in at that point but then Vlad said the epistles mention it. I was going to quote 1 Corinthians 15 which lists the people to whom Jesus appeared, including 500 at once.

Don’t forget that you’re referencing just one account here (ie, one account of 500 witnesses), not 500 accounts. If I wrote down that 1 million people had seen a dragon that wouldn’t mean there are 1 million accounts of dragon witnessing – you’d still have just one record of the claim, and even then not from one of the (supposed) 1 million witnesses. That is, it all gets a bit thin at this point

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So I would go down that route to demonstrate that some part of us (the spirit or soul) is immortal (though Jesus said we should fear the one who is able to destroy the soul).
So I will go with the NT as the demonstration of the resurrection and thereby the soul/spirit.


That’s called a non sequitur. That a story of 500 people witnessing a resurrection is written down does not imply that 500 people witnessed a resurrection. It just tells you that one person likely decades later said they did.
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45941 on: April 21, 2023, 06:10:30 PM »
Spud,

In a rare moment of clarity Vlad has already pointed out that even if a resurrection had been shown to have happened that wouldn’t necessarily imply proof of a god, but ok…

Don’t forget that you’re referencing just one account here (ie, one account of 500 witnesses), not 500 accounts. If I wrote down that 1 million people had seen a dragon that wouldn’t mean there are 1 million accounts of dragon witnessing – you’d still have just one record of the claim, and even then not from one of the (supposed) 1 million witnesses. That is, it all gets a bit thin at this point
 

That’s called a non sequitur. That a story of 500 people witnessing a resurrection is written down does not imply that 500 people witnessed a resurrection. It just tells you that one person likely decades later said they did.
Yes, but there are other accounts that agree - the gospels, the OT, epistles of Peter, James and John, so we have multiple eyewitness accounts and second hand ones too.

They confirm our subjective experience of God.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45942 on: April 21, 2023, 06:14:57 PM »
Vlad,

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Not really a miracle is an act of divine intervention so it doesn't really matter where God intervenes or operates from.

Yes really. Are you claiming a god-caused (and therefore miraculous) resurrection, or a naturalistic resurrection that happened by some as yet unknown material process (in which case the causal god part is unnecessary)?

It would help if you made your mind up about that.
 
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The problems arise for you though…

Oh-oh – why do I get the feeling that, as so often in the past, what you claim to be a problem for me will in fact be a problem for you after all? Let’s see shall we?

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…for you seem to agree there is an initial state…

And truly I have the power of prophecy! I have no idea if there was an “initial state” and I’ve never claimed otherwise. The Big Bang seems a plausible explanation to me for the origin of the observable universe, but I have no idea whether that would be a “true” initial state, just one of an unknowably vast succession of universes, one universe in a multiverse, or any other of the various available conjectures about that.     

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…but this runs contrary to your appeals to infinite regressions, infinitely old universes and I would imagine many of your objections to the Kalam cosmological argument though perhaps not the one's I have with it Ha Ha.

I hear Canada is about to run out of straw what with the excessive demands you’re making on this year’s crop. I’ve never “appealed” to any of these things, as I’ve made single-syllable clear to you many times – rather what I’ve done is to list various conjectures that cannot be ruled out using current means. You on the other hand “appeal” precisely to the fallacy of composition by declaring an internally contingent universe to have been necessarily therefore contingent as a whole on something else, only that something else somehow magically is its own cause. Or something.     

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I have already demonstrated where you were badly wrong about my schtick…

No you haven’t.

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…and you seemed to have changed the goalpost from resurrection to miraculous resurrection.

They’re your goalposts not mine, and you’re the one who’s changing them. Until now your schtick has been “miraculous resurrection, therefore god”. Now it seems to be “natural resurrection by currently unknown material processes, therefore…errr…”.

You can choose either horse to ride, but you can’t ride both. Which horse is it?

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I already pointed out that if resurrection is the rearrangement of matter then it is a possible technology.

Which would rule out the necessity for your god. Fine by me, but that gives you a big problem does it not?

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Science though is never…

Oh-oh – how could you possibly know what science is never going to be able to do or not to do? Did Allah whisper it in your ear or something?

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… going to be able to distinguish between a natural resurrection and a miraculous one because it does not do God.

But nor does anything else remember – and that’s the problem you always run away from.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45943 on: April 21, 2023, 06:18:32 PM »
Spud,

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Yes, but there are other accounts that agree - the gospels, the OT, epistles of Peter, James and John, so we have multiple eyewitness accounts and second hand ones too.

No, they agree with each other (though not always - Dicky Underpants is your man for expertise on that) but they do not constitute independent reports of the same event. There's a big difference. 

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They confirm our subjective experience of God.

They do no such thing. What they "confirm" to varying degrees is some people's beliefs about that, not the fact of it. 
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45944 on: April 21, 2023, 06:45:26 PM »
Yes, but there are other accounts that agree - the gospels, the OT, epistles of Peter, James and John, so we have multiple eyewitness accounts and second hand ones too.

They confirm our subjective experience of God.

We don't have witness accounts but claims written down after the event by unknown authors who appear to have used common sources for their accounts.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45945 on: April 21, 2023, 07:26:27 PM »
Yes, but there are other accounts that agree - the gospels, the OT, epistles of Peter, James and John, so we have multiple eyewitness accounts and second hand ones too.

They confirm our subjective experience of God.

Have you sanity-checked them, Spud? If so, on what basis have you excluded mistakes, bias or lies?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45946 on: April 22, 2023, 10:42:24 AM »
Vlad,

Yes really. Are you claiming a god-caused (and therefore miraculous) resurrection, or a naturalistic resurrection that happened by some as yet unknown material process (in which case the causal god part is unnecessary)?
No, determinism needs an initial state which determines what follows which rather buggers up your alternative of infinite regress or infinite universe. So we have your contradictory initial state. And this is where the assumption of naturalism breaks down. How come an initial state and not nothing. And how come an initial state of maximum possible order. Also your attempts at eliminating the necessary entity are inadequate. In fact you've repeated your best shot at this so far in using the words ''some as yet unknown material process''.
 
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And truly I have the power of prophecy! I have no idea if there was an “initial state” and I’ve never claimed otherwise. The Big Bang seems a plausible explanation to me for the origin of the observable universe, but I have no idea whether that would be a “true” initial state, just one of an unknowably vast succession of universes, one universe in a multiverse, or any other of the various available conjectures about that.
Again, If there is no initial determining state, how do you then have determinism?     
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I hear Canada is about to run out of straw what with the excessive demands you’re making on this year’s crop. I’ve never “appealed” to any of these things, as I’ve made single-syllable clear to you many times – rather what I’ve done is to list various conjectures that cannot be ruled out using current means. You on the other hand “appeal” precisely to the fallacy of composition
A composite entity has to be contingent on what it is composed of. Non recognition of that is definitely ''Dullard'' but lets examine your argument by an example.

 Suppose Rishi Sunak's cabinet was made up of great politicians then his cabinet would be therefore be great. well not necessarily but in any case his cabinet would still be a cabinet. It would not be a cabinet unless Sunak had assembled it and it is not a cabinet without it's members. The cabinet is dependent for it's existence through it's members.

Similarly the universe emerges from it's components. It is dependent on them and therefore cannot be anything but composite and contingent.

Since you have failed to see this I can only conclude that you are using childish strategies to protect the idea that you thought that is all your idea and what no one else came up with.
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They’re your goalposts not mine, and you’re the one who’s changing them. Until now your schtick has been “miraculous resurrection, therefore god”. Now it seems to be “natural resurrection by currently unknown material processes, therefore…errr…”.
The actual technology is unknown but the principle is merely one of rearranging matter.
As I and others have pointed out a totally natural resurrection occuring unconsciously would be very unlikely. Science cannot spot a divine resurrection so could never tell us. It could be passing aliens, but why would they resurrect the very chap who said that the God of Israel was going to do it? Which brings us back to did God then put them up to it or if it was a natural resurrection...and did God put nature up to it?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 10:47:10 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45947 on: April 22, 2023, 10:50:48 AM »
Hi Ekim,

All fine as a discussion of semantics, but the point rather I think is that religious people so often also jump from allegorical imagery that illustrates an experienced feeling or emotion to “therefore a causal objective fact about the world that’s true for everyone”. That’s the problem – the leap from the subjective narrative to the objective fact with no logical bridge to get them there.
That, I suspect, is the result of power hungry religious organisations focusing on persuasive methods to sustain a belief system, rather than a way or method for the individual to leap from subjective narrative to subjective fact.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45948 on: April 23, 2023, 11:58:37 AM »
Gabriella,

But before you can even consider that you’d need to explain what “supernatural” means and to demonstrate its existence at all. Only once you’ve done that could you trouble yourself with what populates it.
Supernatural is a description for something that is outside the various currently known rules and explanations of the natural world that science has come up with based on demonstrable evidence. In this case for example, we are given various descriptions of an entity in the Quran that does not seem to conform to explanations derived using repeatable, testable, demonstrable methods  e.g. unique, eternal, no beginning and no end, beyond time and space, nothing like it in this world, etc etc.

I do not need to demonstrate that the supernatural exists as I am not making an argument that it exists - I am merely communicating my belief in order to confirm that I am a theist - as we are on a discussion forum of theists and atheists.

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Which is fine except that very often religious people will tell you that the existence of a supernatural god is a “hard fact”.
True some/ many religious people may express a belief that god is a "hard fact" - I think this is done to convey the strength or certainty of their belief. But as they provide no repeatable, testable, demonstrable evidence for god, which means their belief is based on interpretations of subjective experiences, on the testimony of others, and on aesthetics, presumably the way we use language would categorise what they express as a belief rather than fact. People in society have broadly adopted the view that society should show respect for other people's beliefs within certain limits, maybe because they see it as a way of reducing violent conflict in society and because they want respect shown for their own beliefs and aesthetics. Of course there will be some problems in accommodating conflicting beliefs - and as part of the process of a functioning society, these conflicting beliefs are identified and debated, which all takes time. No system is perfect but discussing the issues seems to be a good starting point to managing conflicts.

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That’s not the point though. The point is the (supposed) authority that follows reifying an authoritative god claim into a hard fact claim. In “the realm of possibilities” a god that might be that might have rules on eg homosexuality is perhaps a matter of aesthetics. Jump from that to hard facts territory though (ie a god that is and that does have rules on eg homosexuality) and “god hates gays” is a much a fact as gravity is a fact (witness Vlad’s dullard assertions of objective morality for example), and so those who think that will tend to behave accordingly.       
When beliefs are held by a substantial part of the population, regardless of what the beliefs are, they will influence the rules that society comes up with to regulate its behaviour and morality. Adding a god belief into the mix is one method of persuasion, but there are plenty of others e.g. fighting for a cause, a political belief, beliefs about race or culture or nation states or abstract notions of freedom, honour etc. which are also down to aesthetics and can't be demonstrated as hard facts. A religious person stating "god hates gays" seems to be voicing one of their own aesthetic preferences - and by that I mean that there may be many people who experience a "yuk" reaction to the thoughts /visualisation of sexual acts, but only some of them will express it in public and seek to influence large groups of society to enforce rules and try to control people to prevent people from engaging in a particularly activity. They may have various reasons such as a self-serving agenda, preservation of power or creating a particular sort of order and conformity in society, but it seems to come down to aesthetics and particular types of people with the ability to persuade and influence large groups of people into going in a particular direction. Despite it being an imperfect system, democracy and politics and discussion seems to be the preferred way for the individuals who make up society to come up with ways of regulating competing beliefs in society. So I assume you don't want people to stop expressing their beliefs or engaging in the current system to regulate beliefs.

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You referred to a god handing down his rules via an angel. Either you think this god and angel are allegorical characters (akin to the hare and the tortoise) or you think they actually exist(ed) regardless of the stories told about them. I thought you believed the latter, but if instead you think that god/angel are epistemically equivalent to hare/tortoise then well and good.   
I don't think they are similar to the hare and tortoise - I assume Aesop made it clear that was a fictional story, whereas it is not stated in the Quran that these are fictional stories to illustrate some point. As I have stated many times before, I believe that the supernatural entity described in the Quran is real albeit that I don't know how much of the description is literal as opposed to allegorical or illustrative due to the constraints of language, but I am not claiming or making an argument that it is real or that the contents of the Quran is fact as I have no way to demonstrate that it is real or factually correct. So for me it remains a belief, not fact. Islam was pitched to its adherents as a way of regulating their behaviour as individuals within society based on a belief in the truth of what is stated in the Quran, and the Quran does state that some parts of it are allegorical and some parts should be taken literally, and only the supernatural entity described in the Quran knows for certain which parts are allegorical and which parts are literal. This has given some space for interpretation and application of the guidance in the Quran, depending on time and location and context.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 12:02:23 PM by Violent Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45949 on: April 23, 2023, 03:20:29 PM »
Vlad,

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No, determinism needs an initial state which determines what follows which rather buggers up your alternative of infinite regress or infinite universe. So we have your contradictory initial state. And this is where the assumption of naturalism breaks down. How come an initial state and not nothing. And how come an initial state of maximum possible order. Also your attempts at eliminating the necessary entity are inadequate. In fact you've repeated your best shot at this so far in using the words ''some as yet unknown material process''.

Dear god but you struggle. If I throw a ball at a window and the window breaks, that’s determinative system. It’s an open system rather than a closed one, but it’s a determinative system nonetheless. The “initial state” in this case is me throwing the ball – what happened prior to that and what happens after the window breaks are neither here nor there for this purpose. It’s still a determinative system.

The rest of your drivel collapses accordingly.   
 
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Again, If there is no initial determining state, how do you then have determinism?

See above.

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A composite entity has to be contingent on what it is composed of. Non recognition of that is definitely ''Dullard'' but lets examine your argument by an example.

 Suppose Rishi Sunak's cabinet was made up of great politicians then his cabinet would be therefore be great. well not necessarily but in any case his cabinet would still be a cabinet. It would not be a cabinet unless Sunak had assembled it and it is not a cabinet without it's members. The cabinet is dependent for it's existence through it's members.

Similarly the universe emerges from it's components. It is dependent on them and therefore cannot be anything but composite and contingent.

Whoosh! The universe may or may not be internally an entirely determinative system. Let’s just guess for now that it is. Now then, how do you then propose to build a logical path from that to “therefore the universe itself must be contingent on something other than itself”?

Take as long as you need here…

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Since you have failed to see this I can only conclude that you are using childish strategies to protect the idea that you thought that is all your idea and what no one else came up with.

So far at least, there’s nothing to see. I notice though that someone has posted a video version of your “therefore goddidit” gibberish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DORsBnflbs

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The actual technology is unknown but the principle is merely one of rearranging matter.

What “actual technology”? There’s no good reason to think there was an actual resurrection remember? What you’re trying to say here is that, if ever there was robust evidence for a resurrection, there is no known technology by which it could have occurred.
 
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As I and others have pointed out a totally natural resurrection occuring unconsciously would be very unlikely.

I don’t know what you mean by “unconsciously” here but in any case however unlikely a natural process, if ever such a thing did happen how would you compare its unlikeliness with the unlikeliness of a god doing it?

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Science cannot spot a divine resurrection so could never tell us.

Nor, so far, could anything else.

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It could be passing aliens, but why would they resurrect the very chap who said that the God of Israel was going to do it?

What makes you think that any “very chap” has been resurrected?

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Which brings us back to did God then put them up to it or if it was a natural resurrection...and did God put nature up to it?

You’d have a vast task to establish your premise “God” before worrying about this supposed god did or did not do, but as you seem to be deep into the reification fallacy here: “Which brings us back to did leprechauns then put aliens up to leaving gold at the ends of rainbows or if it was a natural gold storage plan ...and did leprechauns put nature up to it” is no less valid a question.

Try to remember this in future. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God