Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

Our ability to guide our own thoughts is no illusion.

No, it's not even an illusion, because it doesn't even seem like that, if you bother to examine what's actually going on in your head. And you are still ignoring the fact that we have zero control over what thoughts occur to us.

It is verified by our conscious ability to validate our conclusions.

Absurd, unargued assertion.

Our freedom to consciously contemplate and draw verifiable conclusions and cast judgements is a miraculous gift from God - not from the uncontrollable laws of nature.

Another totally baseless, unargued assertion, and logically the same thing as saying it's magic, which you denied.

And you've yet again totally ignored most of what has been posted and picked out one one-line post you can just repeat your silly assertions at.

I don't think it's actually possible for you to be as utterly stupid and unable to learn as your posts suggest, if you were you'd not be able to use the forum, or hold down even the most basic of manual jobs, let alone get a PhD or join Mensa.

I'm struggling with hypotheses here, maybe:

• Really, really lazy?
• Just here to preach, rather than genuinely engage with what is said to you? But it's obviously not working, so why would you bother?
• Just here to preach but because you think it will earn you brownie points in heaven, whether it works or not?
• So blinded by faith that you literally can't think about this subject, and just blot out all the difficult points?
• Terrified (maybe subconsciously) of thinking about it in case you find you're wrong, and that would destroy your faith and disrupt your whole life?
• Basically being dishonest for some reason?

I dunno, maybe something I haven't thought of? Do tell.

[Maeght]

It is not magic.  Magic is an illusion.
Our ability to guide our own thoughts is no illusion.
It is verified by our conscious ability to validate our conclusions.
Our freedom to consciously contemplate and draw verifiable conclusions and cast judgements is a miraculous gift from God - not from the uncontrollable laws of nature.

Magic isn't an illusion but refers to influencing events using supernatural powers.

[torridon]

The evidence for human free will is truly in abundance, but a tiny minority of people try to deny its existence because it offers evidence for the power of our human soul.

There is no evidence for free will, if there were any, then why haven't you posted it up here. Of course you've been challenged to do that on this thread many times, and all you come up with is evidence of will, which nobody disputes.  Stop making grandiose claims you cannot justify.

[Alan Burns]

There is no evidence for free will, if there were any, then why haven't you posted it up here. Of course you've been challenged to do that on this thread many times, and all you come up with is evidence of will, which nobody disputes.  Stop making grandiose claims you cannot justify.

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.
My arguments are based on what I can achieve through my will - particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions.
After consciously contemplating what you perceive to be reality, you seem to conclude that every thought, word or deed must originate within subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it.  But it remains a mystery to me how you can arrive at this conclusion without conscious control of the thought processes involved.

[Nearly Sane]

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.
My arguments are based on what I can achieve through my will - particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions.
After consciously contemplating what you perceive to be reality, you seem to conclude that every thought, word or deed must originate within subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it.  But it remains a mystery to me how you can arrive at this conclusion without conscious control of the thought processes involved.

And it's assertion and incredulity. No evidence. Yet again.

[jeremyp]

The evidence for human free will is truly in abundance,

And yet you have never presented any of it. I'm beginning to think you are not telling the truth.

In any case, the concept is incoherent. It can't possibly exist.

[jeremyp]

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.
My arguments are based on what I can achieve through my will - particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions.

What makes you think that requires free will?

[Stranger]

Perhaps switching the Alan-bot off and on again would help?

My arguments....

When did you post any actual arguments? Mindless assertions and fallacies are not arguments.

...particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions.

You have provided no reasoning or evidence about the role of the conscious mind in any of these processes, and totally ignored all the evidence and reasoning that shows that its role is minor or indirect.

And you were asked about free will, not the role of consciousness, THEY ARE TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUES. Even if you could show that consciousness was in total control (which you can't), free will would still be impossible.

After consciously contemplating what you perceive to be reality, you seem to conclude that every thought, word or deed must originate within subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it.

You were asked about free will, not the role of consciousness, THEY ARE TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUES. Even if you could show that consciousness was in total control (which you can't), free will would still be impossible.

But it remains a mystery to me how you can arrive at this conclusion without conscious control of the thought processes involved.

Personal incredulity fallacy. 

Did I mention that you were asked about free will, not the role of consciousness, THEY ARE TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUES. Even if you could show that consciousness was in total control (which you can't), free will would still be impossible?

You are even confused about your own claims, FFS!

[ekim]

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.

... and what you need to do is demonstrate how that determination is free from your self willed desires especially those related to religious doctrine.  Remember - 'The Truth will set you free.'

[torridon]

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.
My arguments are based on what I can achieve through my will - particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions
...

Sure, that is will.  It doesn't mean your will is 'free'.  You act on your desires, such as they are, but you cannot choose which desires to have, nor can you choose which thoughts to have.

[Sebastian Toe]

It is not magic.  Magic is an illusion.

You are confused.

Magic, dictionary definition.

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

"Magicians" are illusionists, they don't actually use magic the true sense.
I'm guessing that's where your soul has poorly contemplated your answer from.

[Sebastian Toe]

So we both admit to the existence of human will.
Where we differ is what determines our human will.
My arguments are based on what I can achieve through my will - particularly in being able to contemplate the reality we exist in and draw consciously verified conclusions.
After consciously contemplating what you perceive to be reality, you seem to conclude that every thought, word or deed must originate within subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it.  But it remains a mystery to me how you can arrive at this conclusion without conscious control of the thought processes involved.

It remains a mystery to a lot of people how you can rely on a soul for your version of reality.
You have no idea where it resides, how it links to your brain, what it does when you are unconscious, how it thinks, how it comes to exist, when it comes to exist, how it is attached to you and not someone else.
Yet you blatantly try to call out others because they don't have a hard definition of consciousness.

Hy
Po
Crite.

[Nearly Sane]

You are confused.

Magic, dictionary definition.

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

"Magicians" are illusionists, they don't actually use magic the true sense.
I'm guessing that's where your soul has poorly contemplated your answer from.

Could you link to where you found that definition as tge sole definition of magic? Because if you were to take tge Collins definition as an example that seems to be one, and not the most major.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/magic

[Sebastian Toe]

I typed
Define magic
Into Google.
That was the top result.

[Nearly Sane]

Has the search been called off?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Has the search been called off?

Boredom?

[Maeght]

The debate has gone round and round in circles so many times it has disappeared up its own *****

[Alan Burns]

• Terrified (maybe subconsciously) of thinking about it in case you find you're wrong, and that would destroy your faith and disrupt your whole life?

It has been suggested several times that I may be terrified of admitting that our human freedom to consciously control our thoughts, words and actions is a logical impossibility.

All I can say is that if my faith hinges on the existence of human free will then my faith is on absolutely solid ground and I have no cause whatsoever to worry.

Terrified? - no way!

I have found God in the person of Jesus Christ and I am able to rejoice in the God given freedom that nature alone can never give.
And I have discovered the inner peace and joy which no other faith or belief system can ever give.

I will continue to pray for you all and witness to the truth which sets us free.

[Stranger]

It has been suggested several times that I may be terrified of admitting that our human freedom to consciously control our thoughts, words and actions is a logical impossibility.

All I can say is that if my faith hinges on the existence of human free will then my faith is on absolutely solid ground and I have no cause whatsoever to worry.

Terrified? - no way!

I have found God in the person of Jesus Christ and I am able to rejoice in the God given freedom that nature alone can never give.
And I have discovered the inner peace and joy which no other faith or belief system can ever give.

I will continue to pray for you all and witness to the truth which sets us free.

You gotta laugh at another massively selective quote from an older much longer post to say that you aren't afraid to think about the broader issue.   

I did say that your fear may be subconscious, and that your mind simply won't allow you to think about the important points because you've invested way too much in your own point of view. It's also a well known cognitive bias that the more invested you are in an idea, the more you cling on to it, no matter what.

Your statement about the solidity of the existence of free will is pure blind faith, that quite obviously runs away from the logic that has been presented to you multiple times.

Oh, and you yet again repeated the stupidity of "conscious control" being the same as free will.

[Alan Burns]

Your statement about the solidity of the existence of free will is pure blind faith, that quite obviously runs away from the logic that has been presented to you multiple times.

You have never been able to give a viable explanation for how such logic can simply drop out from the uncontrollable reactions in a material brain WITHOUT the need for conscious control of the thought processes needed to reach and verify such logical conclusions.

Oh, and you yet again repeated the stupidity of "conscious control" being the same as free will.

Is it stupid to realise that the instigation of any act of free will must emanate from the conscious entity of awareness which defines "you"?

[Gordon]

Perhaps those who claim to have found 'God' could provide the rest of us with a map, and maybe point out any interesting sights we should look out for along the way.

[Stranger]

You have never been able to give a viable explanation for how such logic can simply drop out from the uncontrollable reactions in a material brain WITHOUT the need for conscious control of the thought processes needed to reach and verify such logical conclusions.

The fallacy factory just keeps on going. Your fallacy for this is: argument from ignorance. You're also, yet again, repeating the total idiocy of conflating the role of consciousness with somehow escaping determinism (real meaning, not your absurd "determined by...").

There is zero evidence, and you've provided zero reasoning, to say that everything in your conscious mind is not the result of what you stupidly label "the uncontrollable reactions in a material brain".

Nothing.

Is it stupid to realise that the instigation of any act of free will must emanate from the conscious entity of awareness which defines "you"?

Since free will (in the sense you use it) is nonsensical gibberish (as is this entire quote, for that matter), the question does not arise.

I am not defined by a "conscious entity of awareness". It's a silly, pointless mantra, not an argument or any sort of reasoned deduction, observation, or even a simplistic "as it seems" assumption. It's just nonsense.

[Alan Burns]

Perhaps those who claim to have found 'God' could provide the rest of us with a map, and maybe point out any interesting sights we should look out for along the way.

It is all in the Christian bible, Gordon.
in particular - John 3.16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Stranger]

It is all in the Christian bible, Gordon.

A book riddled with contradictions and containing zero reasoning or evidence.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which is itself an absurd contradiction to a loving and just God.

[jeremyp]

It is all in the Christian bible, Gordon.
in particular - John 3.16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

According to Christians, that quotation is a lie.

God didn't give his only begotten son, he loaned him out for a weekend.