Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

Because?

 
I can't remember the exact details, but my recollection is that we have to rely on the probability that certain quantum events will occur to prevent atoms from imploding.

We rely on the quantum events happening, yes, I'm not sure I remember anything about them needing to be random for that, but I confess we're a little beyond the point where my scientific knowledge is fully up to date. I'll see if I can find something on it.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Firstly, can you demonstrate anything else? Secondly, we can link consciousness extremely strongly with brain activity, which is deterministic, without needing anything else to explain it and without any spurious activity - why presume anything else is involved?

Linking consciousness with brain activity does not define how it works.  Specifically, we do not know how the activity in many individual brain cells can be assimilated into a single perceived state of conscious awareness.

[SusanDoris]

'Uncomfortable' is not the appropriate word!! Let's see,. how about:

- exasperated, because

- (a) there is still so much avoidance of truth and facts by AB and, of course, others here!
- (b) the teaching of Science and its method, and critical thinking has such a long way to go
 

[Alan Burns]

We rely on the quantum events happening, yes, I'm not sure I remember anything about them needing to be random for that, but I confess we're a little beyond the point where my scientific knowledge is fully up to date. I'll see if I can find something on it.

O.

The quantum events do not need to be random - they need to occur within specific ranges of probability, but we can't define or detect any cause for these quantum events.

[torridon]

Linking consciousness with brain activity does not define how it works.  Specifically, we do not know how the activity in many individual brain cells can be assimilated into a single perceived state of conscious awareness.

Maybe not at the moment, but we are working on it.

[Outrider]

The quantum events do not need to be random - they need to occur within specific ranges of probability, but we can't define or detect any cause for these quantum events.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not sold on the idea that quantum events are random - I know it's the prevailing view in quantum mechanics at the moment, and I know that it explains some things quite well, but there are other things it fails to explain adequately.

That something occurs within a range of probability doesn't mean that it's not deterministic - we can give a range of probability for snow a few days in advance, but we know that weather is entirely deterministic, just so complex that we struggle to accurately calculate all the possible variables and interactions.

O.

[Gordon]

If I was a non believer, I too would feel uncomfortable reading my posts. 

Now and then, Alan - specifically when, after said reading, I end up laughing until my sides are sore.

[Maeght]

If I was a non believer, I too would feel uncomfortable reading my posts. 

Its not a question of feeling uncomfortable Alan.

[Alan Burns]

Christians are often accused of seeking God for their own comfort.

I think the opposite may be true in that non believers choose not to seek God because they do not wish to have their lifestyle changed by the demands of religious faith.

Christianity is not a comfortable religion.  To be a Christian involves taking up your cross and following Christ.  And emulating the words Christ spoke to the Father: "Not my will, but thine be done."  Jesus warns us that as His followers we will be called to follow paths we would not wish to take.

So to become a Christian will involve a challenge, the biggest challenge of your life, to have your life turned upside down in order to follow Jesus. 

So why should we choose to seek such a challenge?  In doing so you will find the ultimate joy of fulfilment in achieving what God brought us into existence for.

[Shaker]

Christians are often accused of seeking God for their own comfort.

I think the opposite may be true in that non believers choose not to seek God because they do not wish to have their lifestyle changed by the demands of religious faith.

Non-believers don't believe in a god to seek or not seek, Alan.

That's why they're non-believers.

Come on, it's not difficult.

[Gordon]

Christians are often accused of seeking God for their own comfort.

I think the opposite may be true in that non believers choose not to seek God because they do not wish to have their lifestyle changed by the demands of religious faith.

Or because there are no good reasons to think there is anything to 'seek' in the first place.

[Shaker]

Or because there are no good reasons to think there is anything to 'seek' in the first place.

Indeed. People who think, or even merely suspect, tha there is a god to seek or who can be avoided are not atheists, by definition.

[Alan Burns]

I am far from perfect, but try to help others if I can. It is important from my perspective that I continue being just me. I have no wish to follow a long dead guy who was in all probability nothing like the icon the gospel writers created.

I think you would make a great Christian, Floo. 

[Alan Burns]

Non-believers don't believe in a god to seek or not seek, Alan.

That's why they're non-believers.

Come on, it's not difficult.

Nor is is difficult just to try seeking Him.

[Shaker]

Nor is is difficult just to try seeking Him.

But you have to believe, or even merely suspect, that there's something to seek in the first place. Gordon has just said this. I don't.

[Alan Burns]

Or because there are no good reasons to think there is anything to 'seek' in the first place.

I can think of several good reasons - do you not wish to seek an explanation of who you are and why you exist, or are you completely satisfied that you are just part of the continuum of uncontrolled matter in this universe heading for oblivion?

[Gordon]

Nor is is difficult just to try seeking Him.

To do so would imply there was a basis upon which the idea of 'God' was worth serious consideration: and there isn't!

[Gordon]

I can think of several good reasons - do you not wish to seek an explanation of who you are and why you exist, or are you completely satisfied that you are just part of the continuum of uncontrolled matter in this universe heading for oblivion?

The latter, and until such times as there are good reasons to think otherwise I'm quite comfortable adopting a 'don't know' stance.

I have no need of the assorted fallacies, liberally seasoned with wishful thinking, advanced by the likes of yourself and some of your fellow Christians.

[Shaker]

I can think of several good reasons - do you not wish to seek an explanation of who you are

I can do that by self-examination (no, not that kind) and introspection.

and why you exist

I know why that is - my parents were involved at the earliest stages, but beyond that I have no further desire to go. The later whys - purposes and meanings - are founded upon the things to which I give worth and value.

or are you completely satisfied that you are just part of the continuum of uncontrolled matter in this universe heading for oblivion?

Who says that matter is uncontrolled? The rest is right though. Yes, completely satisfied. These are all interesting things worth pondering, but not a one of them ends in: "... therefore God." Being a part of the continuum of the stuff of the universe - I can't think of anything much grander than that. Oblivion is the price that has to be paid for having been here at all.

[torridon]

Nor is is difficult just to try seeking Him.

Maybe we should wait and see if NASA or somesuch body finds evidence for God.  As humble members of the public we don't have those kind of resources at our disposal, also we probably lack the necessary dispassionate objectivity to discern between real actualities and self-induced beliefs born of our own inner desires.

[Outrider]

Christians are often accused of seeking God for their own comfort. I think the opposite may be true in that non believers choose not to seek God because they do not wish to have their lifestyle changed by the demands of religious faith.

I can see them choosing a particular sect based on what they're comfortable with - psychologically and emotionally - but whether or not you believe isn't something that you choose. I don't know of anyone whose reason for not believing is 'well, it's such a burden'.

More to the point, the lifestyles that we develop as we grow are, in part, a result of the nature of our beliefs rather than predominantly the other way round.

Christianity is not a comfortable religion.  To be a Christian involves taking up your cross and following Christ.  And emulating the words Christ spoke to the Father: "Not my will, but thine be done."  Jesus warns us that as His followers we will be called to follow paths we would not wish to take.

That's your take on Christianity. There seem to be a considerable number for whom Christianity means acknowledging the existence of a deity and just generally trying to be a nice person: that doesn't really sound very different from my life of not acknowledging the existence of a deity and just generally trying to be a nice person.

So why should we choose to seek such a challenge?  In doing so you will find the ultimate joy of fulfilment in achieving what God brought us into existence for.

You hope... you might be right, of course, but you might not.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Maybe we should wait and see if NASA or somesuch body finds evidence for God.  As humble members of the public we don't have those kind of resources at our disposal, also we probably lack the necessary dispassionate objectivity to discern between real actualities and self-induced beliefs born of our own inner desires.

'Why would God need a spaceship?'

[Outrider]

'Why would God need a spaceship?'

Damn, beat me to my nerdgasm

O.

[BashfulAnthony]

I am far from perfect, but try to help others if I can. It is important from my perspective that I continue being just me. I have no wis...

Except for the name-calling and derision, that is.

[Alan Burns]

Who says that matter is uncontrolled?

In a deterministic universe there can be no control.  For control to exist anywhere, the cause and effect chain must be broken by the deliberate act of a controller.