Searching for GOD...

[BeRational]

OK I have to spell it out to you. There is no unequivocal evidence for the cause of anything. It comes down finally therefore to God or not God. There is no knock down argument for either.

So given your repetition and hedging ''Lose on suffering try and win on unequivocality'' don't you think you are now just gameplaying?

Why would it come down to god or no god?

Why not pink toothbrush or no pink toothbrush or anything else.

[Bubbles]

No it's not wrong.

We determine 'wrong' by it not being useful to survival. Natural selection builds into us certain behaviours that help continued survival.
Jumping off cliffs to your death, or going around killing people, are 'wrong', as they do not help.
They are not wrong because a god says so, they are 'wrong' because they are inefficient.

I don't determine what's wrong by whether it's useful to survival or not, you are attempting to speak for everyone and you can't.

I think it's more about whether someone is being fair to someone else and treating others as you wish to be treated.

Sometimes that goes against the survival thing, because it might mean you have to consider someone else's needs first.

A fireman may lose his life saving a baby he is not even related to, or someone dies refusing to give up their principals or values.

It may be instinct to pick the one that favours survival, but IMO that's sometimes the wrong choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Wrong is the word we have used for the act of doing things that are not useful to the survival of our species.

A case for killing can be made of course, but always in line with our survival.

Our genes do not really care what we do, as long as it means we stay alive to keep doing it, and more importantly pass on our genes to the next generation.

Genes do not care or contemplate anything. It is the brain which contemplates and cares. Which gives you a bit of a problem.......... is survival of the individual good or bad or is it survival of the species........and doesn't it take a brain to weigh it all up?

[BeRational]

I don't determine what's wrong by whether it's useful to survival or not, you are attempting to speak for everyone and you can't.

I think it's more about whether someone is being fair to someone else and treating others as you wish to be treated.

Sometimes that goes against the survival thing, because it might mean you have to consider someone else's needs first.

A fireman may lose his life saving a baby he is not even related to, or someone dies refusing to give up their principals or values.

It may be instinct to pick the one that favours survival, but IMO that's sometimes the wrong choice.

Considering someone else is part of our group culture. It is helping survival. You help them, they help you.
This sacrificing is beneficial as a whole, and that's all natural selection cares about.
It does not care about individuals, just the group.
That some die helping others is just good for the survival in general, and it came  from when we were in small groups. When you helped someone you were very very likely to be helped by them in the future.
Of course, this no longer applies when we live in cities etc, but the ingrained behaviour is still there.
We are programmed to be nice to each other in general.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why would it come down to god or no god?

Why not pink toothbrush or no pink toothbrush or anything else.

because the world can exist without pink toothbrushes but might be a bit stymied if there was no God or nature.

[Bubbles]

Genes do not care or contemplate anything. It is the brain which contemplates and cares. Which gives you a bit of a problem.......... is survival of the individual good or bad or is it survival of the species........and doesn't it take a brain to weigh it all up?

Religion often teaches you to look beyond yourself and your instincts,  IMO.

Berationals theory sounds like something he's read somewhere. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We are programmed to be nice to each other in general.

How do you explain not being nice?

[Gordon]

OK I have to spell it out to you. There is no unequivocal evidence for the cause of anything. It comes down finally therefore to God or not God. There is no knock down argument for either.

So given your repetition and hedging ''Lose on suffering try and win on unequivocality'' don't you think you are now just gameplaying?

Not really gameplaying: just asking a question of you and not getting an answer!

Anyway I'll let you off the hook for a wee while since I'm about to jump on a motorbike and go to the shops/bookies (and perhaps frighten some Honda Jazz drivers along the way).

[BeRational]

How do you explain not being nice?

It looked like it would be useful to the individual at the time.

I take it you are not afraid to meet a complete stranger on a bus or a train, or out walking.
Should you fall and twist your ankle, people would help.
They would not kick you, but some will take the advantage to steal from you while you are down. But they are not the norm.

[Bubbles]

Considering someone else is part of our group culture. It is helping survival. You help them, they help you.
This sacrificing is beneficial as a whole, and that's all natural selection cares about.
It does not care about individuals, just the group.
That some die helping others is just good for the survival in general, and it came  from when we were in small groups. When you helped someone you were very very likely to be helped by them in the future.
Of course, this no longer applies when we live in cities etc, but the ingrained behaviour is still there.
We are programmed to be nice to each other in general.

Not really, a lot of the world population treats each other appallingly.

" it does not care about individuals, just the group" 

I'm surprised you think "IT " cares about anything 

"That some die helping others is just good for the survival in general, and it came  from when we were in small groups. When you helped someone you were very very likely to be helped by them in the future."


Not if you were dead.

You also are not there to care for your family.

Natural selection doesn't care about anything, does it?

When did natural selection become a feeling entity in its own right?

It's sounds like intelligent design, that theory.

[BeRational]

Not really, a lot of the world population treats each other appallingly.

" it does not care about individuals, just the group" 

I'm surprised you think "IT " cares about anything 

"That some die helping others is just good for the survival in general, and it came  from when we were in small groups. When you helped someone you were very very likely to be helped by them in the future."


Not if you were dead.

You also are not there to care for your family.

Natural selection doesn't care about anything, does it?

When did natural selection become a feeling entity in its own right?

It's sounds like intelligent design, that theory.

I assumed you understood that 'care' was just a useful word.

It does not care it does not guide it does not plan.

In essence it is mathematics and probability.
What works, works.

All the rest empathy, compassion, violence, hate, love, are just how we interpret the need to survive.

In reality nothing matters. It does not matter in the sun were to explode (it won't) and kill us all.

We decide for ourself what matters, and because we all evolved from the same place, it should come as no surprise to find that we have a great number of things in common.

We share common goals on the whole.  I can tell how people will react to certain situations, because I can put myself in their place, and feel what they would feel. I cannot do that with any other species.

How often have you seen someone get hurt, and you sort on feel the pain in the same place?

[Bubbles]

I assumed you understood that 'care' was just a useful word.

It does not care it does not guide it does not plan.

In essence it is mathematics and probability.
What works, works.

All the rest empathy, compassion, violence, hate, love, are just how we interpret the need to survive.

In reality nothing matters. It does not matter in the sun were to explode (it won't) and kill us all.

We decide for ourself what matters, and because we all evolved from the same place, it should come as no surprise to find that we have a great number of things in common.

We share common goals on the whole.  I can tell how people will react to certain situations, because I can put myself in their place, and feel what they would feel. I cannot do that with any other species.

How often have you seen someone get hurt, and you sort on feel the pain in the same place?

I just find your world view very depressing tbh.

It looks to me like you dismiss everything under the umbrella of self interest one way or another.

I don't find it very ' inspiring'

And ' inspiring ' is very important to me.

I don't suppose it would matter ultimately if the sun blew up, but it would matter to me and everyother living thing on the planet.

It will do one day btw but hopefully a few billion years away.

All the rest empathy, compassion, violence, hate, love, are just how we interpret the need to survive.

You might, I don't see it that way.

I think you can rise above your basic instincts to do better, if you believe you can't you never will.

It's like the story about training fleas in a box with a glass lid

Training fleas requires a glass jar with a lid. The fleas are placed inside the jar and the lid is sealed. They are left undisturbed for three days. Then when the jar is opened the fleas will not jump out. The fleas will never jump higher than the level set by the lid. When the fleas reproduce their offspring will automatically follow their example.

If you don't try, you will never achieve more than you expect to achieve.

I want to be the flea that jumps out of the jar.   

Your way of seeing things seems to be like the ones who never jump higher because they believe they can't 

[BeRational]

I just find your world view very depressing tbh.

It looks to me like you dismiss everything under the umbrella of self interest one way or another.

I don't find it very ' inspiring'

And ' inspiring ' is very important to me.

I don't suppose it would matter ultimately if the sun blew up, but it would matter to me and everyother living thing on the planet.

It will do one day btw but hopefully a few billion years away.

You might, I don't see it that way.

I think you can rise above your basic instincts to do better, if you believe you can't you never will.

It's like the story about training fleas in a box with a glass lid

If you don't try, you will never achieve more than you expect to achieve.

I want to be the flea that jumps out of the jar.   

Your way of seeing things seems to be like the ones who never jump higher because they believe they can't 

Depressing or realistic.

Evolution does not care as you say about giving you hope.

I am the least depressed person you could meet. I make my own meanings, and I have a family that is the main focus.
I can do all those things, and still know that evolution could care less about any of the things I care about.

The universe does not care whether I live a long happy productive life, or die tomorrow.
It's not out to get me, but it does not care.

[Bubbles]

Depressing or realistic.

Evolution does not care as you say about giving you hope.

I am the least depressed person you could meet. I make my own meanings, and I have a family that is the main focus.
I can do all those things, and still know that evolution could care less about any of the things I care about.

The universe does not care whether I live a long happy productive life, or die tomorrow.
It's not out to get me, but it does not care.

Depressed people don't survive very well, so maybe it does.

Different things suit different people I suppose.

What depresses me doesn't you and visa versa


I don't see your way as being particularly realistic btw so it's not really depressing or realistic..... 

Man has achieved a lot by being inspired and to you unrealistic maybe.

Maybe we are the way we are, because we have this ability to hope and be inspired and a bit detached from what you call " reality" 

[BeRational]

Depressed people don't survive very well, so maybe it does.

Different things suit different people I suppose.

What depresses me doesn't you and visa versa


I don't see you way as being particularly realistic btw so it's not really depressing or realistic..... 

I think we would still have a lot in common.
What would upset you is likely to upset me too.
This is to be expected, or we are in trouble.

Realistic is to accept that there is not great meaning out there.
You make your own meaning.

[Shaker]

Yes

Native American Proverb: "Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins."

Shaker's version: "... because that way, you'll be a mile away with a new pair of moccasins."

[Outrider]

because the world can exist without pink toothbrushes but might be a bit stymied if there was no God or nature.

If there were no nature, there would be nothing to be stymied that a world didn't exist.

As it is, though, the world appears to be surviving pretty well without any gods. It'd be doing even better if there weren't people that believed in gods, I think, but we've a way to go before we know that for sure.

O.

[BeRational]

I find great meaning out there, in everything.

I can't help it I just do.

Man flying isn't realistic, but man made it happen, because he was inspired by the idea of flight.

So he found a way, he was inspired to lift himself above the reality of what he was, to find a way.

That isn't evolution, we haven't grown wings as a result. No one uses planes to hunt food.

We as a species are ridiculous.

Easy to see if you try and imagine another species trying to do something almost irrational.

You don't find pigs strapping on a pair of wings and leaping off cliffs 😜 pigs are too sensible 😉

Only human beings seem to possess this ability to be totally ridiculous and give it a go.

See, being a bit irrational and hopeful has its uses.

Initially flying for man wasn't a survival thing, it was an irrational and potty thing.

Part of what makes us unique is, we are in many ways,  irrational and nuts.

To be  irrational and nuts, requires inspiration and hope plus a dollop of luck.

Unfortunately this trait we have is in danger of upsetting the climate on our lovely little planet.

If we don't curb it, we could ultimately kill ourselves off ( well if we don't find another way of curbing our excesses)

That irrational and nutty bit of us, that differs to the rest of the animal kingdom is going to kill us off if we are not able to curb our various creations that produce pollution.

When you recognise being barmy and slightly out of sync with the rest of the planet, is both our blessing and curse, I think being totally realistic goes out of the window, because that's what all the other species do.

Human beings are a bit different 

We have become masters at adapting our world to suit us.

It all started with farming IMO 

I see people differently to you, I think 

😜💐🌹

Flying is part of being inquisitive and wanting to take control.

We explore and we like to know stuff.

It's what we do.

[Shaker]

LOL 

I'll just lend you my stilettos then 😜

As long as they're size 12, you're on.

[floo]

LOL 

I'll just lend you my stilettos then 😜

I just don't know how anyone can walk in those things. I bought a pair for my wedding but realised I would break my neck walking down the aisle, so had to buy another a pair of shoes in which I wouldn't do myself a mischief! I have worn sensible shoes all my life.

[Sassy]

Don't you secretly wish that God didn't practice favouritism ? Being 'chosen' plays to our inherent narcissism, it creates jealousies, it sets brother against sister and father against son, and ultimately nation against nation.

Not when all are chosen and treated and loved equally. Love not only covers many sins it prevents us from creating them.
Wouldn't you like to be free of petty jealousies and squabbles?

[Sassy]

Read up to page 253 and the WUM factor was definitely alive.
What I do not understand is why people calling themselves believers bite?

Especially, when a couple of them wouldn't know the contents of a bible if it suddenly started talking the Words from the pages.
I believe that believers are getting bored with the digs and smirks with the remarks of being delusional.


Keys from backs removed!

[torridon]

Not when all are chosen and treated and loved equally. Love not only covers many sins it prevents us from creating them.
Wouldn't you like to be free of petty jealousies and squabbles?

My comment was in response to TW who claims that people are chosen, or not, as the case may be.

The Bible itself makes clear that God practices favouritism; how much suffering has been caused down the centuries as a result of God allegedly showing favouritism to Israel ?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Depressing or realistic.

Evolution does not care as you say about giving you hope.

I am the least depressed person you could meet. I make my own meanings, and I have a family that is the main focus.
I can do all those things, and still know that evolution could care less about any of the things I care about.

The universe does not care whether I live a long happy productive life, or die tomorrow.
It's not out to get me, but it does not care.

Certainly your world view includes a hell of a lot of things which according to you are illusions. In other words cover for you not being able to explain it.

The fact remains you have no explanatory for existence and the maintenance of existence on the universal scale.........or appear to have any intention of wanting one or acknowledging  one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If there were no nature, there would be nothing to be stymied that a world didn't exist.

As it is, though, the world appears to be surviving pretty well without any gods. It'd be doing even better if there weren't people that believed in gods, I think, but we've a way to go before we know that for sure.

O.

non sequitur