Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897466 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7475 on: January 06, 2016, 02:06:43 PM »
Whatever level of intelligence the DNA lottery has allotted to the relevant persons

Maybe I should have added the above to my former post.

ippy

No matter how wise or stupid a person is, he can always choose how to act.

Siesta time guys! See ya later.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7476 on: January 06, 2016, 02:08:12 PM »
Call it whatever you choose ... it's still evidence. :)

And another assertion and again exactly the same one as Alan makes about his god.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7477 on: January 06, 2016, 02:12:18 PM »
Call it whatever you choose ... it's still evidence. :)

But it's the same kind of evidence as presented by many religious people.   It's my experience, and also that of billions of other people. 

Or in the old saying, 10 billions flies can't be wrong. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 02:18:15 PM by wigginhall »
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7478 on: January 06, 2016, 02:12:54 PM »
Dear Sane,

Quote
As covered with Leonard, this isn't about a denial of free will, it's asking you to back up the claim that you have it.

I don't know if I have it or not, you old friend and my hero Einstein tell me it is an illusion.

 I choose to be on this forum, but then I didn't, I chose it because my favourites chose it, why did I not stick with Shakers site, I did not like the lay out of his site so I chose this one, why did I choose to join the old beeb site, because it was a name I trusted.

Free will is in there somewhere, but maybe not. aaarrrrgghhh!!

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7479 on: January 06, 2016, 02:17:16 PM »
Dear Sane,

I don't know if I have it or not, you old friend and my hero Einstein tell me it is an illusion.

 I choose to be on this forum, but then I didn't, I chose it because my favourites chose it, why did I not stick with Shakers site, I did not like the lay out of his site so I chose this one, why did I choose to join the old beeb site, because it was a name I trusted.

Free will is in there somewhere, but maybe not. aaarrrrgghhh!!

Gonnagle.

It maybe an illusion, I am not making that claim. Similarly I don't claim god(s) don't exist. Your claim, and Leonard's, is that there is such a thing as free will. I am only asking for evidence.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7480 on: January 06, 2016, 02:21:10 PM »
Show me the post, for me the jury is still out, no one on this thread has shown me it is dead in the water.

I'm not going to go back and find the detail, here's the crux of the argument: our decision are made up of the activity of neurons in the brain. Either these neurons are activated by stimuli deterministically, or they are somehow randomly firing off. If they're deterministically activated then our will has no freedom at the basic level, and if it's random then there's freedom but I don't see how it can be classified as 'will'.

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Here is a scientist saying we do have some measure of free will.

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle operates at the subatomic level, our brain activity operates at the cellular level, where we can accurately determine the state of objects.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7481 on: January 06, 2016, 02:22:42 PM »
Also as previously noted frequently, free will isn't really an issue on a day to day basis. It's not even from my viewpoint particularly interesting. We have to act as if it were true, and if it isn't then it won't make any difference.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7482 on: January 06, 2016, 02:28:39 PM »
It's interesting that neurologists talk of executive functioning in the brain, that it, that there are hierarchical systems, for example, we are able to focus attention on one thing or another.  It used to be said (I think) that these executive functions were based in certain areas of the brain, but my memory is that now it is said to be more of a holistic system.  I suppose AB will now say that the executive function is the soul. 

But anyway, my point is that you can see how the idea of free will occurs, since the executive is 'in charge' of subordinate systems, and this can lead to the psychological impression of an agent, thus I am choosing to chew my food, but not to breathe.    You could actually argue that it's not an illusion, but a psychological construct, unless you are going to argue that psychological constructs are illusions!
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7483 on: January 06, 2016, 02:32:16 PM »
Dear Outrider,

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Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle operates at the subatomic level, our brain activity operates at the cellular level, where we can accurately determine the state of objects.

Sorry mate but that is the kind of statement I disagree on, it is like an end of story statement, turn the lights off and lets go home statement, others on this forum are telling me we live in exciting times regarding how the brain, the mind works, we are only at the beginning of understanding how the brain operates.

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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7484 on: January 06, 2016, 02:47:48 PM »
I am with you on this one, Gonners, because no matter what previous events are inclining you to behave in a certain way you can always choose not to ... if only to demonstrate that you have free will.

And from where does the inclination to make that demonstration come? By what process do you come to the decision to resist your inclination?

Given that neurology is deterministic and there is no evidence of anything else involved in thinking, how can the resultant decision not be equally deterministic? Sufficiently complex that we can't accurately predict it, yes, but still deterministic in nature.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7485 on: January 06, 2016, 02:52:38 PM »
Pretty well everybody can choose whether to follow their inclinations or not do so. What more "proof" do you want than that?

Where do those 'inclinations' come from?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7486 on: January 06, 2016, 03:35:59 PM »
Where do those 'inclinations' come from?

O.

It matters not! The point is that they are NOT obliged to follow them ... they can use their free will and refuse to do so.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 03:39:04 PM by Leonard James »

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7487 on: January 06, 2016, 03:40:29 PM »
It matters not! The point is that they are NOT obliged to follow them ... they can use the free will and refuse to do so.

It actually does - if those inclinations are the inevitable consequence of your inherited nature and your life experience, and your decision-making process is the inevitable consequence of your inherited nature and your life experience, then any decision you make - whether to follow your inclinations or act against them - is an inevitable consequence of prior conditions.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7488 on: January 06, 2016, 03:45:43 PM »
It actually does - if those inclinations are the inevitable consequence of your inherited nature and your life experience, and your decision-making process is the inevitable consequence of your inherited nature and your life experience, then any decision you make - whether to follow your inclinations or act against them - is an inevitable consequence of prior conditions.

O.

The fact remains that we CAN choose one way or the other. That is free will.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7489 on: January 06, 2016, 03:51:47 PM »
The fact remains that we CAN choose one way or the other. That is free will.

I think it only appears as free will as it could not look like anything else.

The colour blue looks blue but it is not really blue.

I see gullible people, everywhere!

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7490 on: January 06, 2016, 03:54:25 PM »
And the sun appears to be going round the earth. 
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BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7491 on: January 06, 2016, 03:56:04 PM »
And the sun appears to be going round the earth.
Indeed and I remember a TV presenter saying (as as joke) how silly those people in the past were to think the Sun went round the Earth.

The punchline was. Try to imagine what that would have looked like.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7492 on: January 06, 2016, 04:00:04 PM »
Indeed and I remember a TV presenter saying (as as joke) how silly those people in the past were to think the Sun went round the Earth.

The punchline was. Try to imagine what that would have looked like.
He pinched that off Wittgenstein, the rotter.
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7493 on: January 06, 2016, 04:01:16 PM »
The fact remains that we CAN choose one way or the other. That is free will.

We can choose, that's will - what are we, in that phrase, though? We are the consequence of prior events.

It's not the 'will' part that I disagree with, Len, it's the idea that will is somehow 'free'. Free from what?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7494 on: January 06, 2016, 04:06:49 PM »
The fact remains that we CAN choose one way or the other. That is free will.

And again this is using the Assertatron approach to describes 'facts' just as Alan and Sassy do.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7495 on: January 06, 2016, 04:08:56 PM »
But if you keep repeating your assertion, it does become true, doesn't it?  (Sarcasm).
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7496 on: January 06, 2016, 04:09:57 PM »
It seems that we have free will in terms of day-to-day trivia but it only seems that way, since even the viable options we can choose from surely involves pre-existing conditions: I could choose between motorcycling or driving the car to Tesco provided I both are available to me: but going by camel isn't, sadly, an option.

It seems to apply to beliefs too - for example, and no matter how hard I try, I'm not free to choose to believe that Huddersfield is a suburb of Belgrade.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7497 on: January 06, 2016, 04:10:11 PM »
But if you keep repeating your assertion, it does become true, doesn't it?  (Sarcasm).
It's the Bellman's Rule, wiggles - mightily popular round these here parts.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7498 on: January 06, 2016, 04:16:01 PM »
And again this is using the Assertatron approach to describes 'facts' just as Alan and Sassy do.

What's up, NS? Don't you like the truth?

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7499 on: January 06, 2016, 04:19:30 PM »
It seems that we have free will in terms of day-to-day trivia but it only seems that way, since even the viable options we can choose from surely involves pre-existing conditions: I could choose between motorcycling or driving the car to Tesco provided I both are available to me: but going by camel isn't, sadly, an option.

It seems to apply to beliefs too - for example, and no matter how hard I try, I'm not free to choose to believe that Huddersfield is a suburb of Belgrade.

Anybody who believes something that is demonstrably wrong is deluded.