Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

What difference does it make whether the rest of creation is sentient or not? The rain forests can expand again, the rivers run clear again, the air will sparkle. Sea birds will live free of oil and plastic, land birds will have adequate food and can soar in safety from the huntsman's gun. The big cats, elephants and rhinos, too, will no longer fall victim to man's greed and foolish superstition. Worms will dig down into rich, dark earth and bees dance above unsprayed, unmodified flowers. The oak will never feel the chainsaw. The earth will never be shattered by dynamite.

A veritable garden of Eden, wouldn't you say? 'And God saw that it was good.'

But if no other creature on this earth is able to perceive the beauty of this  Garden of Eden, it's existence is totally pointless.   The creatures and vegetation merely survive, but there is no-one to appreciate it.

The natural world doesn't exist just so that humans can picnic in AONBs or have something to watch on the Nat Geo channel. Do you not think a lion stretching in the sun or a dolphin bouncing through the surf appreciates its existence?

[Sriram]

Dear Rhiannon,

You got an applause from Torridon and a agreement from Shaker but to win me over I will need some more, and please remember that this request comes from a follower of Christ, a religion that teaches greed is a sin.

Gonnagle.

I'm not sure what it is that you think I'm trying to win you over to, but the idea that the natural world is there to be exploited by those who have 'dominion' over it as granted to them by God is a Judeo-Christian concept. It may or may not exist in other faiths, but the Industrial Revolution was carried out by good Christian folks and created a mindset that now dominates the world regardless of faith - only now it's called 'growth' and not greed.

And whilst we're on that subject, your faith has also given us Prosperity Theology, popular with industrialists and others who see it as God's gift to them to exploit both their own country's environment and that of others. Who cares if rivers get polluted and animals go extinct, the fact they're coining it means they have God's blessing, right? And where is Prosperity Theology the most popular? One of the world's biggest hitters, the USA. So no, I'm not looking to Christianity for answers anytime soon.

Yes....but not so much the devout Christians as the scientists and engineers who while criticizing Christianity, willy-nilly adopted the same mindset (till very recently perhaps).  An attitude of Man VS Nature.  It is this attitude that has resulted in disruption of the eco system.

I think the culturally in the West the Judeo-Christian mindset was the one which science inherited - we make nature bend to our will. I think this is exemplified in GM crops - if they feed more people then they are regarded as a good thing regardless of the impact they may have on the environment. In fact the same could be said of many modern farming methods, let alone energy production. The tide is turning, yes, but is it in time?

Yes...I agree.  So...while the Judeo-Christian philosophy is basically responsible...the scientists and engineers of the 19th & 20th century are equally responsible for this mindset. 

Even the Theory of Evolution that emphasizes competition and 'survival of the fittest' is also perhaps responsible to a large extent in encouraging this attitude of superiority and 'one up man ship'.

[Leonard James]

Even the Theory of Evolution that emphasizes competition and 'survival of the fittest' is also perhaps responsible to a large extent in encouraging this attitude of superiority and 'one up man ship'.

The TOE doesn't "emphasize competition", it simply explains the part competition plays in the theory, and it certainly makes no moral judgement about whether it is right or wrong. Man has done that for his own ends.

[torridon]

What difference does it make whether the rest of creation is sentient or not? The rain forests can expand again, the rivers run clear again, the air will sparkle. Sea birds will live free of oil and plastic, land birds will have adequate food and can soar in safety from the huntsman's gun. The big cats, elephants and rhinos, too, will no longer fall victim to man's greed and foolish superstition. Worms will dig down into rich, dark earth and bees dance above unsprayed, unmodified flowers. The oak will never feel the chainsaw. The earth will never be shattered by dynamite.

A veritable garden of Eden, wouldn't you say? 'And God saw that it was good.'

But if no other creature on this earth is able to perceive the beauty of this  Garden of Eden, it's existence is totally pointless.   The creatures and vegetation merely survive, but there is no-one to appreciate it.

That's humungously anthropocentric, as if the human ability to appreciate beauty is the only worthwhile characteristic.  Anyway, our sense of aesthetics goes way back; flowers were beautiful long before humans evolved to appreciate them; they developed their fine beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators, not humans.

[Alan Burns]

What difference does it make whether the rest of creation is sentient or not? The rain forests can expand again, the rivers run clear again, the air will sparkle. Sea birds will live free of oil and plastic, land birds will have adequate food and can soar in safety from the huntsman's gun. The big cats, elephants and rhinos, too, will no longer fall victim to man's greed and foolish superstition. Worms will dig down into rich, dark earth and bees dance above unsprayed, unmodified flowers. The oak will never feel the chainsaw. The earth will never be shattered by dynamite.

A veritable garden of Eden, wouldn't you say? 'And God saw that it was good.'

But if no other creature on this earth is able to perceive the beauty of this  Garden of Eden, it's existence is totally pointless.   The creatures and vegetation merely survive, but there is no-one to appreciate it.

The natural world doesn't exist just so that humans can picnic in AONBs or have something to watch on the Nat Geo channel. Do you not think a lion stretching in the sun or a dolphin bouncing through the surf appreciates its existence?

I see no evidence that animals can appreciate the beauty of nature in the same way that humans do.  Does any animal contemplate the beauty of a sunset or the beauty of a flower?  God indeed saw that His creation was good, and He gave human beings the ability to share this appreciation of beauty.

[torridon]

Yes...I agree.  So...while the Judeo-Christian philosophy is basically responsible...the scientists and engineers of the 19th & 20th century are equally responsible for this mindset. 

Even the Theory of Evolution that emphasizes competition and 'survival of the fittest' is also perhaps responsible to a large extent in encouraging this attitude of superiority and 'one up man ship'.

Evolutionary theory has been the biggest single challenge to the hegemony of religious thinking.  Western religions held that humans were different, special, objects of divine creation.  Evolutionary theory brings us down to earth, we are just apes, we are primates, we are mammals, we are eukaryotes; we are part of the great tree of life, part of the biomass on this particular planet. It attacks our inherent narcissism that western religions have played on for millenia.

[Rhiannon]

What difference does it make whether the rest of creation is sentient or not? The rain forests can expand again, the rivers run clear again, the air will sparkle. Sea birds will live free of oil and plastic, land birds will have adequate food and can soar in safety from the huntsman's gun. The big cats, elephants and rhinos, too, will no longer fall victim to man's greed and foolish superstition. Worms will dig down into rich, dark earth and bees dance above unsprayed, unmodified flowers. The oak will never feel the chainsaw. The earth will never be shattered by dynamite.

A veritable garden of Eden, wouldn't you say? 'And God saw that it was good.'

But if no other creature on this earth is able to perceive the beauty of this  Garden of Eden, it's existence is totally pointless.   The creatures and vegetation merely survive, but there is no-one to appreciate it.

The natural world doesn't exist just so that humans can picnic in AONBs or have something to watch on the Nat Geo channel. Do you not think a lion stretching in the sun or a dolphin bouncing through the surf appreciates its existence?

I see no evidence that animals can appreciate the beauty of nature in the same way that humans do.  Does any animal contemplate the beauty of a sunset or the beauty of a flower?  God indeed saw that His creation was good, and He gave human beings the ability to share this appreciation of beauty.

I come back to what I said before: nature doesn't exist solely to be appreciated by humans. It exists in itself and for itself. To place ourselves as something special, something apart, has led to us replacing the garden with the dark satanic mills. We now only appreciate the beauty so long as it doesn't get in the way of us having enough energy, food or housing. Or shopping malls, theme parks' airports and holiday complexes. We live in a world where airport expansion as seen as essential to our wellbeing. Wtf?

[Gonnagle]

Dearie me,

Musings on a lovely sunny morning.

Does this Dominion nonsense stem from the Genesis one, where the Big Man puts us in charge, if I remember my Bible correctly the two main protagonists were vegetarian.

Anyway, Myths aside, let's speak of the main culprit's, man his greed and is he special.

Well we can't get away from the fact that it is man, no other creature is raping and destroying this planet.

But it is greed which is the problem, who's greed, well duh!! Our greed.

Maybe special is the wrong word, but we all sit in our comfy homes surrounded by all the trappings whilst the rape of the planet goes on all around us, what I do know is at this very moment countless Christians are trying to combat this greed are reaching out to the less fortunate.

When we learn to share, when all Gods children have full bellies, then us, the unique, special, unusual species can all help to save the planet.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

There is an interesting discussion to be had about why the Industrial Revolution happened where and when it did and the overall philosophical zeitgeist, of which religion is part, is certainly a consideration. I would suggest though that it is relatively small part and further that it is not external but a mere reflection of that zeitgeist.


Throughout history we have as a species leaned to indiscriminate use of resources, and the idea if the noble savage husbanding resources is beautiful shiny pish. The prosperity theology is only a justification of how we behave, common throughout our history. Gonzo takes the words about rich men and camels close to his heart. I think it facile to blame 'his' religion for our drive for more.


I also find the veneration for Eastern philosophy more based on the accident of not producing the industrial revolution rather than anything significantly different about human behaviour. Religion and philosophy get shaped by history but we fall back on the myth that we are in charge. We are locked in a Ponzi scheme of growth and are hoping that our ingenuity means we can continue growth forever. Our history and that of the planet do not bode well.

[Nearly Sane]

Planet will go on with or without us. Gonzo. We might manage not to be as destructive but thinking we will save it is back at exceptionalism

[Rhiannon]

I don't think you can divorce the legitimacy that Genesis gives to plundering the planet from the catastrophe that we are creating. But no, it doesn't originate there- our greatest forest clearance in the UK happened in pre-history. But Sriram stated that worshipping God keeps our ego in check. Manifestly it doesn't; instead it has allowed us to perpetuated the myth that we are all the Special Ones.

So whilst I don't actually blame Christianity for what has happened it has given us a handy template on which to base our justification for what we do. And it can't be relied on to help to get us out of this mess, either.

The planet will be fine by the way. Even if we were to nuke life out of existence it will heal and recover eventually, and a whole new set of life forms will evolve.

[Alan Burns]

I come back to what I said before: nature doesn't exist solely to be appreciated by humans. It exists in itself and for itself. To place ourselves as something special, something apart, has led to us replacing the garden with the dark satanic mills. We now only appreciate the beauty so long as it doesn't get in the way of us having enough energy, food or housing. Or shopping malls, theme parks' airports and holiday complexes. We live in a world where airport expansion as seen as essential to our wellbeing. Wtf?

I fully agree that in addition to the gifts of wonder and awe which appreciate ther beauty of nature, god also gave us the gift of free will, which when used for selfish reasons can destroy the beauty of nature.  But saying that, mankind also has the ability to help nurture and preserve the beauty of this planet, which no other creatures do.

[Leonard James]

... god also gave us the gift of free will, ...

If he'd had any sense he would also have given us the ability to use it correctly.

[torridon]

When we learn to share, when all Gods children have full bellies, then us, the unique, special, unusual species can all help to save the planet.

That sounds a bit pie in the sky. We have remarkable qualities, for sure, but also we will never be satisfied.  It's in our DNA; any government that promoted shrinkage rather than growth would find itself quickly ditched by its electorate.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree essentially with torridon. It isn't Genesis that gives legitimacy to dominionism. We have a tendency to dominionism and we write to justify it.

[Rhiannon]

Agree essentially with torridon. It isn't Genesis that gives legitimacy to dominionism. We have a tendency to dominionism and we write to justify it.

But we have people who believe Genesis to be God-breathed. Whatever its origins, many Christians see no connection between man's hand and the words of the Bible whatsoever - even more so in the past.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed we do have people thinking it is god breathed, just as we have people who think that because it is we need to take care of the earth precisely because of that dominion.
People also interpret writing to suit their views. Views which are, of course, culturally influenced but those influences are many, varied and all internal. In many senses the spinning jenny is much more important here than Genesis.


I am back at an argument had numerous times with bluehillside. It makes no sense simply to point out the bad done in the name of religion if we ignore the good (and vice versa). If religion is seen as a prime cause, it is behind gonzo's views as much as any prosperity gospel.

[Sebastian Toe]

I see no evidence that animals can appreciate the beauty of nature in the same way that humans do.  Does any animal contemplate the beauty of a sunset

Ask someone born blind that question.

Or ask someone with a light sensitivity disorder, to whom a 'beautiful sunset' is an anathema.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

Pie in the sky should be the goal, I go winging all the way back to Armstrong's research, religion, all religions teach to rise above our basic nature.

Armstrong's watchword is compassion, google that one word, it is a very important and powerful word especially for Christians as it contains passion.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Indeed we do have people thinking it is god breathed, just as we have people who think that because it is we need to take care of the earth precisely because of that dominion.
People also interpret writing to suit their views. Views which are, of course, culturally influenced but those influences are many, varied and all internal. In many senses the spinning jenny is much more important here than Genesis.


I am back at an argument had numerous times with bluehillside. It makes no sense simply to point out the bad done in the name of religion if we ignore the good (and vice versa). If religion is seen as a prime cause, it is behind gonzo's views as much as any prosperity gospel.

You should know me well enough to know that I often advocate for Christianity on here - those who celebrate its decline need to consider who will step in to fill the breach in social care once it finally collapses to the point of barely having significance.

But a truly green spirituality needs to look on nature as being as important as humanity. Gonner's well-meaning argument that we feed the world then save the planet doesn't work - the two need to go hand in hand. And compassion cannot begin and end with human beings. Why not look with compassion upon badgers being culled, polluted seas, dying honeybees?

[wigginhall]

And green spirituality (and politics) will have to tackle climate change, which has set the cat among the pigeons.  Some people want to deny it, as it requires curbs on some traditional forms of growth.  I think it was hardly mentioned in the election.

[floo]

I'm not sure what it is that you think I'm trying to win you over to, but the idea that the natural world is there to be exploited by those who have 'dominion' over it as granted to them by God is a Judeo-Christian concept. It may or may not exist in other faiths, but the Industrial Revolution was carried out by good Christian folks and created a mindset that now dominates the world regardless of faith - only now it's called 'growth' and not greed.

And whilst we're on that subject, your faith has also given us Prosperity Theology, popular with industrialists and others who see it as God's gift to them to exploit both their own country's environment and that of others. Who cares if rivers get polluted and animals go extinct, the fact they're coining it means they have God's blessing, right? And where is Prosperity Theology the most popular? One of the world's biggest hitters, the USA. So no, I'm not looking to Christianity for answers anytime soon.

Correct! The future is in our own hands and protecting the environment is our number one priority ... otherwise we have no future.

Very true. Humans are responsible for their own fate, no deity is going to ride to the rescue!

[ekim]

I think 'be fruitful and multiply' needs looking at as much as anything else, but then nature seems to have a way of dealing with plagues and I suspect even a plague of humans.

[Shaker]

I think 'be fruitful and multiply' needs looking at as much as anything else, but then nature seems to have a way of dealing with plagues and I suspect even a plague of humans.

While you may well be right, how foolish of us to ignore the carrot when offered and to make the stick inevitable.

[ippy]

Indeed we do have people thinking it is god breathed, just as we have people who think that because it is we need to take care of the earth precisely because of that dominion.
People also interpret writing to suit their views. Views which are, of course, culturally influenced but those influences are many, varied and all internal. In many senses the spinning jenny is much more important here than Genesis.


I am back at an argument had numerous times with bluehillside. It makes no sense simply to point out the bad done in the name of religion if we ignore the good (and vice versa). If religion is seen as a prime cause, it is behind gonzo's views as much as any prosperity gospel.

You should know me well enough to know that I often advocate for Christianity on here - those who celebrate its decline need to consider who will step in to fill the breach in social care once it finally collapses to the point of barely having significance.

But a truly green spirituality needs to look on nature as being as important as humanity. Gonner's well-meaning argument that we feed the world then save the planet doesn't work - the two need to go hand in hand. And compassion cannot begin and end with human beings. Why not look with compassion upon badgers being culled, polluted seas, dying honeybees?

"those who celebrate its decline need to consider who will step in to fill the breach in social care once it finally collapses to the point of barely having significance".

Blooming cheek, you're suggesting those of us that have religious beliefs are the only people with the wherewithal or care about our fellow human beings.

Medicine Without Frontiers, is only one of many that do their work in a far more commendable way than the punchers,  there's no carrot or stick mentality, from them.

ippy