Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897888 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8525 on: January 21, 2016, 02:59:00 PM »
Read The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8526 on: January 21, 2016, 03:03:22 PM »
Well yes ape like, but not like any of todays modern apes.


Including us

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8527 on: January 21, 2016, 03:12:40 PM »
This covers the ape/not ape issue about us quite well.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8528 on: January 21, 2016, 03:15:23 PM »
Well yes ape like, but not like any of todays modern apes.

Can you tell me briefly in what way it was different from modern apes?

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8529 on: January 21, 2016, 03:19:14 PM »
Dear Leonard,

I disagree, Floo is just like me, befuddled by evolution, it is a complicated subject and we are led astray by off the cuff remarks like, top of the tree, highly evolved, or that damned T shirt that everybody wears.

It has been promoted by more than one scientist ( Hawking is the most prominent ) that scientists should make science more user friendly, everyone should have a basic and thorough understanding of subjects like evolution.

Science effects us all, and it should be part of being a scientist that they make it more accessible to us less educated types.

Gonnagle.

Gonners, you'll just have to get used to not understanding evolution, just leave it alone, it's neither a pro religious or an anti religious theory, it's the best we've got, content yourself nobody has presented a serious challenge to it in over 150 years, so it's a pretty solid theory.

Think of a tree growing sending branches here and there we shared a branch with other primates for a time and then we took another branch and left the other primates, apes etc on another separate branch; I think you will find that research has traced the actual times these branchings off took place, it's all delightfully  simple, I really can't see where you find any difficulty with it.

Some of us are born from time to time, with birth mutations some advantageous others not quite so, so it amounts to simply those with advantageous mutations are more likely to survive and pass on their blueprint, advantageous, DNA, on to the next generation that gain by the good chance mutation gained by their parents, these are the basic principles of how it works.

There was some other scientific research I heard of recently where there are indications that when our ancestors gained the ability to cook this had a major effect on brain development, apparently because of the amount of calories our brains need to function and cooking food enriches the amount of calories released from any given amount of food, compared to food in it's uncooked state, this was a major step forward allowing a lot more of the calories necessary for a step forward of our brain development in effect it allowed an extra press on the accelerator and allowed humans to pull away from our close relations, ancestors if you like, the apes.

I'm sure some of the detail in my post can be nit picked but I'm only offering a rough outline of how evolution works, as I understand it but I thought it was worth a try who knows you might pick it up one day Gonners, there's no need for a god with evolution it works quite well on it's own.

Ippy


BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8530 on: January 21, 2016, 03:24:05 PM »
Can you tell me briefly in what way it was different from modern apes?

Well we are a modern ape, and all the other apes are also modern and branched off from this earlier ancestor.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8531 on: January 21, 2016, 03:25:53 PM »
Read The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins.

Good rational book, all of the latest  info about this well founded solid theory.

ippy

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8532 on: January 21, 2016, 03:29:26 PM »
Well we are a modern ape, and all the other apes are also modern and branched off from this earlier ancestor.

And what species was the earlier ancestor?

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8533 on: January 21, 2016, 03:30:58 PM »
And what species was the earlier ancestor?

A fish of some sort or some single celled thing.

I guess it depends how far back you go.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8534 on: January 21, 2016, 03:32:43 PM »
And what species was the earlier ancestor?

Go back far enough bacteria.

If it's alive and here on this planet we are related to it, if you go back far enough.

ippy
 

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8535 on: January 21, 2016, 03:34:56 PM »
A fish of some sort or some single celled thing.

I guess it depends how far back you go.

Human ancestors have been in and out of the sea twice before we came along.

ippy

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8536 on: January 21, 2016, 03:35:03 PM »
A fish of some sort or some single celled thing.

I guess it depends how far back you go.
Yes, I know that, but I'm talking about the ancestor that is common to humans and apes. In what way was it distinguishable from modern apes.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8537 on: January 21, 2016, 03:36:09 PM »
Well we are a modern ape, and all the other apes are also modern and branched off from this earlier ancestor.

It's not that it is necessarily different. It's that we don't have it to classify. In one sense since it is used as a common ancestor for apes then it is indeed an ape. But then the idea that it wouldn't be is merely a back up of the creationist misreading that there would be something like a crocoduck.


It may not, were it to be suddenly reborn, be able to breed with any of its descendants, or with only some of them. There are not that many clear fossil ancestors candidates out there but even if we take those candidates for common ancestors of humans, chimpanzees and gorillas, there is not much to look at and that doesn't even take us back as far as orangutans.

(As an aside I don't know how anyone could spend much time with orangutans without thinking they don't just act on instinct as Alan B would have it)

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8538 on: January 21, 2016, 03:38:18 PM »
Gotta go ... soap time. Back later.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8539 on: January 21, 2016, 03:41:34 PM »
Gotta go ... soap time. Back later.

I quite like the sound of that!
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8540 on: January 21, 2016, 03:42:28 PM »
And what species was the earlier ancestor?

Which earlier ancestor? From the very basic finds we have it wouldn't be classified as any of the species that currently are classed in the family of great apes. None of the species we have stood still and didn't evolve, nor did we evolve 'faster'. It's ape like because it was the common ancestor but we really don't know that much about it because it isn't here anymore.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:45:39 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8541 on: January 21, 2016, 03:48:08 PM »
Len,

This may help you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee%E2%80%93human_last_common_ancestor

It's about the human/chimp common ancestor, but it's good enough. You'll see that there's no clear cut answer - you can't say, "it was species A on a Monday, but species B by Tuesday - and extensive hybridization, interbreeding etc occurred over countless generations in any case, but that's as good an answer as you'll get.

As for evolution, NS is right - if you think of it as a bush with tons of twigs, each branching into smaller twigs, each branching into even smaller twigs etc with a species at the end of each one, you cannot say that the species at this end of this twig over on the top left is any "more" evolved than the species way down here on the bottom right. At most you could count the branching junctions to obtain the number of predecessor species to get you back the the common ancestor for all of life, but I'm not sure that that would help you much.

You can't even look at the complexity DNA to help you by the way - ferns have much more of it than we do, as do onions - probably because they've been around much longer than we have so have had more opportunity to add genetic complexity along the way.     
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:50:18 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8542 on: January 21, 2016, 04:17:43 PM »
So I've been told, the fetus as it grows, before birth, goes through the stages of our evolutionary development.

ippy

 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8543 on: January 21, 2016, 04:19:29 PM »
At most you could count the branching junctions to obtain the number of predecessor species to get you back the the common ancestor for all of life, but I'm not sure that that would help you much.

You can't even look at the complexity DNA to help you by the way - ferns have much more of it than we do, as do onions - probably because they've been around much longer than we have so have had more opportunity to add genetic complexity along the way.   

One of the other issues with any view is that the idea of species that we apply doesn't work at all clearly when it comes to something like a virus or bacteria (not that taxonomy is completely clear at any level).


That we have drug resistant bacteria would in a simple time based view show that those bacteria have evolved way 'faster' than we do. Indeed one of the reasons why drosophila, fruit flies, have been used in so much genetic research is the relative speed of reproduction. And thus in a simplistic sense speed of evolution.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8544 on: January 21, 2016, 04:22:14 PM »
So I've been told, the fetus as it grows, before birth, goes through the stages of our evolutionary development.

ippy

Also known as Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny - not generally considered sound now

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8545 on: January 21, 2016, 04:49:01 PM »
Also known as Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny - not generally considered sound now

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

Well when my brother was doing his MD at uni in the sixties he mentioned it to me one time, I have no idea of what the correct terminology should be to describe this, whatever it is you say it should be or isn't.

ippy

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8546 on: January 21, 2016, 04:50:34 PM »
Gotta go ... soap time. Back later.

Enjoy your bath/shower, Len  :)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8547 on: January 21, 2016, 04:59:13 PM »
Well when my brother was doing his MD at uni in the sixties he mentioned it to me one time, I have no idea of what the correct terminology should be to describe this, whatever it is you say it should be or isn't.

ippy


That's why I included the link. Just trying to help.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8548 on: January 21, 2016, 05:08:43 PM »

That's why I included the link. Just trying to help.

I didn't take up the link it's the terminology, my bro's in Oz, and he would have translated it into English for me, if he was here, but thanks anyway.   

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8549 on: January 21, 2016, 05:12:07 PM »
I didn't take up the link it's the terminology, my bro's in Oz, and he would have translated it into English for me, if he was here, but thanks anyway.
The terminology is English.