Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Floo,

Hmmmmmmmmmm! The behaviour of some of its officials appear to have been condoned, rather than condemned, by that organisation.

Yes, but no so far as I'm aware by Alan Burns. Desperate though his reasoning ability may be, I've seen nothing to suggest that he thinks the risk of child abuse is a price worth paying to join his church. No doubt though he can tell us either way.

[Leonard James]

Floo,

Presumably you can "support" the beliefs of an organisation while deploring the behaviour of some of its officials.

I think some of the beliefs and instructions of that organisation are just as deplorable as those who carry them out.

[floo]

Floo,

Yes, but no so far as I'm aware by Alan Burns. Desperate though his reasoning ability may be, I've seen nothing to suggest that he thinks the risk of child abuse is a price worth paying to join his church. No doubt though he can tell us either way.

I think Alan is a decent guy, even though I find his religious reasoning hard to fathom.  However, I am of the opinion that all Catholics should leave the church until such time as it cleans up its act, by getting rid of all the hierarchy and starting again with a clean slate. Devout Catholics appear to be so indoctrinated they seen scared to question their religion. I realise that goes for other doctrines and dogmas too, like the evangelical, 'you must be saved, or else' ghastly garbage!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Len,

I think some of the beliefs and instructions of that organisation are just as deplorable as those who carry them out.

So do I. Inasmuch as some priests abuse children though, that's not part of catholic dogma - I merely says that it's possible for someone to like the dogma and to deplore the abuse. 

[SusanDoris]

I heard on 'Sunday' (Radio 4) this morning, that the JWs have come under scrutiny too with evidence of offences being destroyed etc. Thank goodness for investigating journalists.

[floo]

I heard on 'Sunday' (Radio 4) this morning, that the JWs have come under scrutiny too with evidence of offences being destroyed etc. Thank goodness for investigating journalists.

The JWs have been under scrutiny for quite a while, I believe. I don't think any religious organisation is free of sexual abuse, the more extreme the more likely it is, imo.

[Alan Burns]

I have met and known many Catholic priests, none of whom to my knowledge have been implicated in any way with sexual misconduct, which they all would condemn, as I would.  I am well aware that some priests have been found guilty of this, and are being dealt with appropriately, but I do feel that the media seem to implicate that the problem is much more widespread than it actually is.   My personal journey of faith continues and is considerably enhanced by my regular attendance at Mass.  Indeed I feel drawn into an ever deepening relationship with God every time I attend.  I would highly reccommend it.

[Leonard James]

Hi Len,

So do I. Inasmuch as some priests abuse children though, that's not part of catholic dogma - I merely says that it's possible for someone to like the dogma and to deplore the abuse.

I am unaware of the catholic dogma content, but if it includes the condemnation of homosexual relationships then that is what I was referring to.

[Shaker]

I am unaware of the catholic dogma content, but if it includes the condemnation of homosexual relationships then that is what I was referring to.

It does - homosexuality according to the RCC is "intrinsically" and "objectively disordered" and a "grave depravity." (Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2357-8).

[Leonard James]

It does - homosexuality according to the RCC is "intrinsically" and "objectively disordered" and a "grave depravity." (Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2357-8).

Then it is a deplorable organisation that educated people should shun.

[Shaker]

Quite.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have met and known many Catholic priests, none of whom to my knowledge have been implicated in any way with sexual misconduct, which they all would condemn, as I would.  I am well aware that some priests have been found guilty of this, and are being dealt with appropriately,...

Much of the criticism of the RC hierarchy is that - historically at least - it didn't deal appropriately with abusing priests at all. The current Pope seems to be more across the issue than his predecessors, but there are still questions about the willingness of some dioceses to turn accused priests over to the proper authorities to investigate the accusations. 

...they  but I do feel that the media seem to implicate that the problem is much more widespread than it actually is.

Why do you think that (other than hoping it to be so)? Much of the coverage is about the cover-ups too by the way, so that abusing priests were free to continue their abuse elsewhere.

My personal journey of faith continues and is considerably enhanced by my regular attendance at Mass.  Indeed I feel drawn into an ever deepening relationship with God every time I attend.  I would highly reccommend it.

Nah - however much I might feel personally thrilled at the notion of a universe-creating god taking an interest in little ol' me, the cost would be too high: personal cost in terms of the suspension of critical faculties it would entail; general cost in terms of the scale and severity of the hideous damage the dogma causes to others.

Thanks, but no thanks.   

[Alan Burns]

Inasmuch as some priests abuse children though, that's not part of catholic dogma - I merely says that it's possible for someone to like the dogma and to deplore the abuse.

I just wanted to share Bishop Robert Barron's reflection for today which explains very well the church position:

The temptations Jesus faced in the desert may seem a little obscure to us, but, in fact, they lie at the heart of all human temptation. They are three classic substitutes for the good that is God’s will.

The first great temptation is to focus our lives on material things and the satisfaction of sensual desire: “The tempter approached him and said to him, ‘If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread.’” Jesus is starving after 40 days of fasting, and he feels the temptation to use his divine power to satisfy his bodily desires.

This means that he feels the pull to make the satisfaction of bodily desire the center and ground of his life. This is the pull toward hedonism—the philosophy that the good life is the physically-satisfying life. Food, drink, sex, material things, money, comfort, or a secure sense of the future have become the supreme values for many in our culture.

Many, many people throughout history, and to this day, are waylaid by this powerful temptation. It is powerful because the desires are so basic. Thomas Merton said that the sensual desires—for food, comfort, pleasure, and sex—are like little children in that they are so immediate and so insistent.

But our lives will never open to greater depth as long as we are dominated by our physical desires. This is why in so many of the initiation rituals of primal peoples, something like fasting or sensible deprivation is essential. It is also why initiation into a demanding form of life, like the military, often involves the deprivation of sensual pleasures.
 
When we give way to this temptation, it shuts down the soul, for the soul has been wired for God. It was created for journey into the divine, for the beatific vision. When sensual desire dominates, those deeper and richer desires are never felt or followed. They are, as Merton said, like little children, constantly clamoring for attention.

This is why Jesus responds: “Scripture has it, ‘Not on bread alone shall man live” (Matthew 4:4). Life means so much more than sensual pleasure. Love, loyalty, relationship, family, moral excellence, aesthetic pleasure, and the aspiration after God are all so much more important.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

When we give way to this temptation, it shuts down the soul, for the soul has been wired for God. It was created for journey into the divine, for the beatific vision. When sensual desire dominates, those deeper and richer desires are never felt or followed. They are, as Merton said, like little children, constantly clamoring for attention.

Does the bishop make any attempt to demonstrate this "soul" or "God", or is he content just to assert them into existence too?

This is why Jesus responds: “Scripture has it, ‘Not on bread alone shall man live” (Matthew 4:4). Life means so much more than sensual pleasure. Love, loyalty, relationship, family, moral excellence, aesthetic pleasure,...

Well, this sounds to me like a crude approximation of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

You need to be fed, clothed etc to be in a position to appreciate these things but - so far at least - most would I think agree with the sentiment at least.

...and the aspiration after God are all so much more important.

 
But here he overreaches. Indeed, some of us find "aspiring after God" to be life diminishing rather than life enhancing - the suspension of critical faculties it requires, the poverty of imagination it entails, the crude and often unpleasant morality it dictates etc seems to some of us to be a backwards step rather than a forwards one.

Each to his own though I suppose. 

[ippy]

You are doing good for all when you put your position about how you are, how you feel and how you assert the benefits you think your beliefs bring; I'm certain that your continual assertive support of the indefensible puts off far more people, than you will ever encourage to follow your path.

I think your virtually total rejection of rational and well reasoned posts that point out the floors in well, putting it as politely as I can, things that are rationales to you; well I see little hope for you or any sensible future for people like yourself that still hold on to these kinds of, well again, nonsense beliefs.

Yes I would have eat my words if you proved there was anything in your beliefs, but as you must be aware, it's not very likely Alan, is it?

ippy     

[OH MY WORLD!]

How could you eat your words when Leo has stolen them? You are not a rational thinker. You are the strange fella that keeps his curtains closed, never cuts his lawn, never seen leaving the house and the kiddies blame for their missing cats.

[Alan Burns]

But here he overreaches. Indeed, some of us find "aspiring after God" to be life diminishing rather than life enhancing - the suspension of critical faculties it requires, the poverty of imagination it entails, the crude and often unpleasant morality it dictates etc seems to some of us to be a backwards step rather than a forwards one.

Seeking the truth can be a humbling experience - the realisation that human intellect alone can never discern the truth.

[Shaker]

Seeking the truth can be a humbling experience - the realisation that human intellect alone can never discern the truth.

In which case, since human intellect is all that we have, have ever had and will ever have, the obvious question then becomes: how is the truth to be discerned?

It's a rhetorical question. It can't.

[Leonard James]

Seeking the truth can be a humbling experience - the realisation that human intellect alone can never discern the truth.

Then stop proclaiming that you have it.

[torridon]

Seeking the truth can be a humbling experience - the realisation that human intellect alone can never discern the truth.

That's humans stuffed then.

Why would a god create humans with an arbitrary cap on intellect such that they could never become aware of him ? Why create sighted beings only to enforce being permanently blindfolded ?

[Sriram]

This is probably the longest thread in history. Congratulations...Sassy!

Its amazing how the same people can make the same arguments over and over again for so long!! 

[Leonard James]

This is probably the longest thread in history. Congratulations...Sassy!

Its amazing how the same people can make the same arguments over and over again for so long!!

Ain't that the truth! 

[Alan Burns]

In which case, since human intellect is all that we have, have ever had and will ever have, the obvious question then becomes: how is the truth to be discerned?

Not by human intelect alone, but by a combination of human intellect and divine revelation.

[Shaker]

Not by human intelect alone, but by a combination of human intellect and divine revelation.

By all means prove the existence of the latter.

[Alan Burns]

By all means prove the existence of the latter.

There lies the catch 22
How can we prove God exists without allowing Him to reveal Himself in our lives?