Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

Exactly. It's the fifth wheel syndrome, isn't it - it's very definitely there, but it adds nothing and does no useful work.

I suspect that for Alan to call anything X would be to sail much too close to admitting that some things are unknown and that "I don't know" is at present the only honest, non-gap-plugging answer, something that we know from today's evidence he regards as a "cop-out."

Shakes has anyone asked Alan if he was a consultant on the brain series running on channel 4 at the moment?

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Shakes has anyone asked Alan if he was a consultant on the brain series running on channel 4 at the moment?

ippy

BBC4, I think you mean. 

[Rhiannon]

Well, some forms of religion seem to construct a huge narcissistic melodrama about me, me, me.   I am a great sinner, but God has selected me for salvation - that would be me, me, me, and not you, you, you.  Hee hee hee.   

Some forms of Buddhism suggest that salvation consists of realizing that there was never anything to be saved, or damned, or even born.

Yes, and I'm better than you because I realise how crap I am and you don't. So I've got my wings and cloud ready and waiting and you've got...erm...

Yes, I'm no Buddhist and this probably isn't what you mean but realising that there's nothing beyond so no judgement or salvation - well, it saved me, from the chaotic and unhappy thinking that resulted from believing that there was.

[wigginhall]

Yes, and I'm better than you because I realise how draw I am and you don't. So I've got my wings and cloud ready and waiting and you've got...erm...

Yes, I'm no Buddhist and this probably isn't what you mean but realising that there's nothing beyond so no judgement or salvation - well, it saved me, from the chaotic and unhappy thinking that resulted from believing that there was.

I think it saves plenty of people today, there there isn't really a permanent 'thing' that will be saved or not.   Of course, we still get feelings of shame and guilt, but it's possible to see them like soap bubbles. 

Well, has religion made people feel worse?

[Nearly Sane]

Well, some forms of religion seem to construct a huge narcissistic melodrama about me, me, me.   I am a great sinner, but God has selected me for salvation - that would be me, me, me, and not you, you, you.  Hee hee hee.   

Some forms of Buddhism suggest that salvation consists of realizing that there was never anything to be saved, or damned, or even born.

Since Shaker on another thread has mentioned the Holy film seems appropriate to link to Life of Brian on individuality.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY




The battle between the pride at knowing such a th as a God cares about you and that you are nothing compared t that God seems a particular vicious circle of self worth and self loathing. It's spawned works of literature, untold money for psychiatrists, and more than a few murders.


I am unconvinced that some of the approach based on negation might not have the same effect.

[Rhiannon]

I think it saves plenty of people today, there there isn't really a permanent 'thing' that will be saved or not.   Of course, we still get feelings of shame and guilt, but it's possible to see them like soap bubbles. 

Well, has religion made people feel worse?

Yes, it can do, from what I've seen and experienced.

Guilt and shame are so often toxic within religion because they are associated with things that we shouldn't feel them about. It's almost impossible to avoid feeling ashamed just of wanting and doing the perfectly normal.

[wigginhall]

Since Shaker on another thread has mentioned the Holy film seems appropriate to link to Life of Brian on individuality.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY




The battle between the pride at knowing such a th as a God cares about you and that you are nothing compared t that God seems a particular vicious circle of self worth and self loathing. It's spawned works of literature, untold money for psychiatrists, and more than a few murders.


I am unconvinced that some of the approach based on negation might not have the same effect.

I think theism constructed a particular form of hell, in the form of a permanent self or soul, which could be saved or damned, thus producing great anxiety for some people.  I suppose it became secularized, and Freud ironically claimed that his goal was ordinary human unhappiness. 

Your last point reminds me of people in Zen who said that Zen practitioners just had a different kind of egotism, but it was still there.   Certainly spiritual leaders have a bad track record in terms of embezzlement, fraud, sexual abuse, and so on.   I greatly admired a guy from California who taught Zen, and then it turned out he was a serial shagger, of his friends' wives.

[jeremyp]

But my intellect tells me that there must be something greater than human intellect.

But your intellect could be wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

I think theism constructed a particular form of hell, in the form of a permanent self or soul, which could be saved or damned, thus producing great anxiety for some people.  I suppose it became secularized, and Freud ironically claimed that his goal was ordinary human unhappiness. 

Your last point reminds me of people in Zen who said that Zen practitioners just had a different kind of egotism, but it was still there.   Certainly spiritual leaders have a bad track record in terms of embezzlement, fraud, sexual abuse, and so on.   I greatly admired a guy from California who taught Zen, and then it turned out he was a serial shagger, of his friends' wives.

To quote another favourite 'if I'd never seen such riches, I could live with being poor.' And that works reversed 'if I'd never seen such poverty,I could live with being rich'.

I like the idea of ordinary human unhappiness, that's the aim of medication for depression. They are anti_depressants not happy pills. Perhaps though this is all my own distrust of extremes, and the feeling that they are either covers for the alternative extreme, or a mere switchable extreme.


Less is not more, but perhaps only little things can be really important.

[Nearly Sane]

I always like this sort of chunter with wigginhall,be better down the pub with some cheese, served by the lovely Samantha, or beauteous Sean

[Rhiannon]

To quote another favourite 'if I'd never seen such riches, I could live with being poor.' And that works reversed 'if I'd never seen such poverty,I could live with being rich'.

I like the idea of ordinary human unhappiness, that's the aim of medication for depression. They are anti_depressants not happy pills. Perhaps though this is all my own distrust of extremes, and the feeling that they are either covers for the alternative extreme, or a mere switchable extreme.


Less is not more, but perhaps only little things can be really important.

Wish I'd remembered that song for my Desert Island Discs. 

Little things are all there is really. This moment, the next and the next. All small. What's important now? Ipad, iPod, sofa, dog, forum. If I make anything else more important I'm not here.

[Rhiannon]

I think theism constructed a particular form of hell, in the form of a permanent self or soul, which could be saved or damned, thus producing great anxiety for some people.  I suppose it became secularized, and Freud ironically claimed that his goal was ordinary human unhappiness. 

Another torture arising from the belief in the soul is simply the hope of being reunited with loved ones, which then leads to the pursuit of a belief in an afterlife, even trying to find proof of it. Loss is so utterly terrifying. I've known so many very non religious people who will talk of loved ones 'looking down' on them.

I've never hidden on here the fact that I've wasted a good deal of time stuck in unhappiness, not of my making. I think we overestimate what happiness is. In simplest terms it is the freedom to be oneself, in the presence of people who accept who you are. At least in my experience.

[Alan Burns]

My overriding problem with Alan's ideas is that they never involve any sort of explanation. To simply assert a 'soul' seems to me to be attempting to fill a gap(if indeed it actually exists) with a word which has no explanatory value. We are never told how the soul explains consciousness, how it reacts to/informs the brain, where it is located, how it functions etc. As I see it, it could just as well be named x the unknown for all the use it is.

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

[Rhiannon]

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

Not if you mean something that exist beyond death it doesn't.

[Nearly Sane]

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

Given that as has been pointed out the Soul in your definition is a non materialistic concept, and science is a naturalistic methidoligy, it cannot be disproved, nor fit in well.

[Leonard James]

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

The fact that humans invented the story several thousand years ago to satisfy questions they couldn't answer, in no way props up the truth of it.

Furthermore we have not one scrap of verifiable evidence for gods, souls, spirits or any of the other paraphernalia constantly trotted out for us to "believe" in.

Sadly, it is true that whilst children continue to be brought up in cultures which embrace religious beliefs, however weakly, the more credulous ones are easy prey for them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The fact that humans invented the story several thousand years ago to satisfy questions they couldn't answer, in no way props up the truth of it.

Furthermore we have not one scrap of verifiable evidence for gods, souls, spirits or any of the other paraphernalia constantly trotted out for us to "believe" in.

Sadly, it is true that whilst children continue to be brought up in cultures which embrace religious beliefs, however weakly, the more credulous ones are easy prey for them.

Who is it today Len? Colonel Blimp Plantagenet Palliser?

[torridon]

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

It doesn't fit in well at all, given that your beliefs arbitrarily deny souls to other creatures despite the fact that you insist a soul is required to convert elemental biochemical interactions into meaning, experience, volition and feelings.  You need to let go of fixed arbitrary ideas so that you can grow your thinking into something truer, better, more authentic.

[Sebastian Toe]

But your intellect could be wrong.

...and thus it could be being deceived by Satan!?

[Khatru]

What I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of the spiritual human soul, which has been in existence for several thousand years, is not contradicted or explained away by modern science, and indeed fits in quite well.

The term "supernatural" gives people a green light to not only make up whatever beings they want but also to endow these beings with self-contradictory and magical abilities.  I see it all the time with believers when they refer to their particular choice of deity as being uncreated and somehow living outside of and unaffected by the passage of time.  Yet their god still thinks and acts inside and outside of our natural realm. 

[Alan Burns]

The term "supernatural" gives people a green light to not only make up whatever beings they want but also to endow these beings with self-contradictory and magical abilities.  I see it all the time with believers when they refer to their particular choice of deity as being uncreated and somehow living outside of and unaffected by the passage of time.  Yet their god still thinks and acts inside and outside of our natural realm. 

I perceive that all human beings were born with a natural craving for some form of spiritual fulfillment.  It has led to many man made attempts to reach this fulfillment.  Christianity offers much, much more than any man made philosophy.  Instead of man seeking God, Christians will find that it is God who seeks them.

[Shaker]

I perceive that all human beings were born with a natural craving for some form of spiritual fulfillment.  It has led to many man made attempts to reach this fulfillment.  Christianity offers much, much more than any man made philosophy.

All philosophies are man made, and you don't strike me as the sort who knows much if anything about any of them other than the one you've latched onto.

[torridon]

  Christianity offers much, much more than any man made philosophy.  Instead of man seeking God, Christians will find that it is God who seeks them.

Well he doesn't seem to be successful in finding everybody does he ? No doubt you're going to chalk that one up to the Devil.

[ippy]

Jesus's alive and walks amongst us.

Elvis's alive and walks amongst us.

ippy

[floo]

Jesus's alive and walks amongst us.

Elvis's alive and walks amongst us.

ippy

I believe there are some idiots who think Elvis is still around!