Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

May just as well close this thread now

I'd agree with you Shaker; in fact a lot of the threads here might as well be closed as soon as they are opened since the debatees tend to be working from dramatically different starting points that can never be reconciled.

In this case, from the most mindless gullibility on one side and rational, evidence-based scepticism on the other.

[Gordon]

Difficult to know how to pitch this because antitheists tend to hate being questioned but lets start here...................
For you Gordon who is more likely to disturb the peace and intellectual order? Jesus or Sai Baba?

Neither, since both are dead.

[Alien]

Interesting that many consider Vineyard to be a cult, especially in the USA.

Seriously? On what grounds?

This is one of a few articles by former church members I've found who have experienced cult-like methods in Vineyard churches in the States.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-10-25/news/1992299081_1_vineyard-church-church-leaders-300-churches

I haven't seen them in action in the UK but I do recognise this 'God tells me that...' as a form of control from what I've heard of the team from HTB. Alpha isn't all learning about Jesus, get HTB directly involved and its pantomime and smoke and mirrors, and good people suffer as a consequence.

Btw in case anyone missed it from my earlier link, Ele Mumford, Nicky Gumbel and the HTB crowd are buddies. The link also includes something about the cleft lip miracle. I wouldn't let my kids within a mile of any of them.

Got anything more up to date than something from 1992?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Difficult to know how to pitch this because antitheists tend to hate being questioned but lets start here...................
For you Gordon who is more likely to disturb the peace and intellectual order? Jesus or Sai Baba?

Neither, since both are dead.

As I feared typical self protection from exposure to criticism.
However, We get dead atheists chucked at us left right and centre.
Bill Hicks, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, D, Adams.

It seems dead atheists still carry great Ju Ju power but religious leaders are dead and Gone.

[Shaker]

As I feared typical self protection from exposure to criticism.
However, We get dead atheists chucked at us left right and centre.
Bill Hicks, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, D, Adams.

It seems dead atheists still carry great Ju Ju power

If they said something right, true and accurate, as all of the aforementioned did, it doesn't matter that they're dead. We have these things now called books and the WWW and so forth which means that people's writings live on after them, so they can still educate and inform people down the ages.

but religious leaders are dead and Gone.

Yup!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Difficult to know how to pitch this because antitheists tend to hate being questioned but lets start here...................
For you Gordon who is more likely to disturb the peace and intellectual order? Jesus or Sai Baba?

Neither, since both are dead.

Gordon. I'll hazard it's Jesus that gets your goat more than Sai Baba. This forum is replete with examples of your beef.

[Shaker]

Gordon. I'll hazard it's Jesus that gets your goat more than Sai Baba. This forum is replete with examples of your beef.

I think I speak for many when I say I'd rather have Gordon's beef over your bullshit any day, Vlad 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As I feared typical self protection from exposure to criticism.
However, We get dead atheists chucked at us left right and centre.
Bill Hicks, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, D, Adams.

It seems dead atheists still carry great Ju Ju power

If they said something right, true and accurate, as all of the aforementioned did, it doesn't matter that they're dead.

But you specially plead along with Gordon that this does not apply to religious leaders.

Shaker face up to it. In the general population Hicks, Sagan, Russell are not well known and you'd probably come across as a bit of an extreme career axegrinder.

Whereas people hate Jesus.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It was Jesus who made Himself known to me.

No, Alan, he didn't make himself known to you. The fact is that you simply became convinced that the story told about Jesus was true.

Evidence?

[Shaker]

But you specially plead along with Gordon that this does not apply to religious leaders.

I like to think that most people can tell the difference between unevidenced assertion of the utterly improbable or even downright impossible and tentative claims based on rational scepticism.

Shaker face up to it. In the general population Hicks, Sagan, Russell are not well known and you'd probably come across as a bit of an extreme career axegrinder.

I think you're speaking out of your own limitations here Vlad old fruit. You may never have heard of Bill Hicks until I mentioned him yesterday but he's extremely well known - he consistently appears very near the top or actually at the top of polls of the greatest stand-up comedian who ever lived. Sagan's books sold by the truckload. Likewise Cosmos was seen by millions upon millions. Russell's books remain in print and still sell.

The fact that you're not very up on who's well-known in the general culture is your own handicap.

Whereas people hate Jesus.

Such as whom?

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think it is very clear from your posts, Vlad, what it is you think applies to dead  atheists and not religious leaders, as your posts do not seem to tie up. Could you make it clear since you started talking about 'disturbing the peace and intellectual order', whatever that means, and you now just seem to be talking about quoting dead people?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But you specially plead along with Gordon that this does not apply to religious leaders.

I like to think that most people can tell the difference between unevidenced assertion of the utterly improbable or even downright impossible and tentative claims based on rational scepticism.

Shaker face up to it. In the general population Hicks, Sagan, Russell are not well known and you'd probably come across as a bit of an extreme career axegrinder.

I think you're speaking out of your own limitations here Vlad old fruit. You may never have heard of Bill Hicks until I mentioned him yesterday but he's extremely well known - he consistently appears very near the top or actually at the top of polls of the greatest stand-up comedian who ever lived. Sagan's books sold by the truckload. Likewise Cosmos was seen by millions upon millions. Russell's books remain in print and still sell.

The fact that you're not very up on who's well-known in the general culture is your own handicap.

Whereas people hate Jesus.

No I think you are steeped in a US centred Antitheist culture there.

Of course religious books never sell, nobody goes to see films like Noah and other biblical epics making something of a resurgence etc.

Was Cosmos watched for it's antitheism?.......... I doubt it.
Is Hick's the greatest comedian because of his antitheist material.................I doubt it.

You see Shaker,,,You only appreciate these guys apparently because they pissed in the same pot as you. So don't try to pass of your interest as the wider public interest.

[Sebastian Toe]

The sceptics on this forum seem happy to write off Ele Mumford's testimony as a deliberate lie.  It takes a lot of courage to stand up and give a witness in front of 2000 people.  It would take an unbelievable amout of courage to tell them a deliberate lie.

Peter Popoff must be one of the most courageous people on the plant then, according to your definition. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y

[Shaker]

No I think you are steeped in a US centred Antitheist culture there.

Anti-theist? Yes, as I am one. US-centred? No.

Of course religious books never sell

They do ... just not much

nobody goes to see films like Noah and other biblical epics making something of a resurgence etc.

People go to see them because they're CGI-laden blockbuster movies, not documentaries Vladdles

Was Cosmos watched for it's antitheism?.......... I doubt it.
Is Hick's the greatest comedian because of his antitheist material.................I doubt it.

Straw man. I never said this or for that matter even implied it. You were trying to make out that Bill Hicks and Carl Sagan are little known in the general culture, and I said you're wrong and speaking out of your own ... ignorance.

You see Shaker,,,You only appreciate these guys apparently because they pissed in the same pot as you. So don't try to pass of your interest as the wider public interest.

I like anybody who's critical and dismissive of religion, true. I also like comedians who are funny and scientists who broadcast beautifully. The ones who do it well become well known ... or at least they do to people who don't live in a cellar.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think it is very clear from your posts, Vlad, what it is you think applies to dead  atheists and not religious leaders, as your posts do not seem to tie up. Could you make it clear since you started talking about 'disturbing the peace and intellectual order', whatever that means, and you now just seem to be talking about quoting dead people?

I think you've got the wrong bloke Sane.

It is Shaker who thinks the words of Dead atheists ring out through the nations and the centuries where as the religious leaders merely die.

That IMHO is clearly and demonstrable Bullshit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I think you are steeped in a US centred Antitheist culture there.

Anti-theist? Yes, as I am one. US-centred? No.

Of course religious books never sell

They do ... just not much

nobody goes to see films like Noah and other biblical epics making something of a resurgence etc.

People go to see them because they're CGI-laden blockbuster movies, not documentaries Vladdles

Was Cosmos watched for it's antitheism?.......... I doubt it.
Is Hick's the greatest comedian because of his antitheist material.................I doubt it.

Straw man. I never said this or for that matter even implied it. You were trying to make out that Bill Hicks and Carl Sagan are little known in the general culture, and I said you're wrong and speaking out of your own ... ignorance.

You see Shaker,,,You only appreciate these guys apparently because they pissed in the same pot as you. So don't try to pass of your interest as the wider public interest.

I like anybody who's critical and dismissive of religion, true. I also like comedians who are funny and scientists who broadcast beautifully. The ones who do it well become well known ... or at least they do to people who don't live in a cellar.

I watched Sagan...loved the show and Sagan was one of the instruments in me becoming interested in Christianity so I have a lot to thank him for.

[Shaker]

I watched Sagan...loved the show and Sagan was one of the instruments in me becoming interested in Christianity so I have a lot to thank him for.

That would be very peculiar, but then, that's your thing so why not?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I watched Sagan...loved the show and Sagan was one of the instruments in me becoming interested in Christianity so I have a lot to thank him for.

That would be very peculiar, but then, that's your thing so why not?

It wasn't my thing but he was good at presenting and communicating the full affective significance of awe and wonder....and he wasn't specifically antireligious. He was a fuller, rounded respectful man in my opinion than anybody the atheist camp has fielded or wanted to field since.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think it is very clear from your posts, Vlad, what it is you think applies to dead  atheists and not religious leaders, as your posts do not seem to tie up. Could you make it clear since you started talking about 'disturbing the peace and intellectual order', whatever that means, and you now just seem to be talking about quoting dead people?

I think you've got the wrong bloke Sane.

It is Shaker who thinks the words of Dead atheists ring out through the nations and the centuries where as the religious leaders merely die.

That IMHO is clearly and demonstrable Bullshit.

Nope, right bloke, referring initially to your replies 180 and 182 (Shaker not posted between them) and then your subsequent posts having raised the points there.

[Shaker]

It wasn't my thing but he was good at presenting and communicating the full affective significance of awe and wonder....and he wasn't specifically antireligious. He was a fuller, rounded respectful man in my opinion than anybody the atheist camp has fielded or wanted to field since.

He was very much the accomodationist in a lot of ways. Also in a way he was like Darwin ... quite reticent in public, inclined to be very significantly harder on religion in private

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It wasn't my thing but he was good at presenting and communicating the full affective significance of awe and wonder....and he wasn't specifically antireligious. He was a fuller, rounded respectful man in my opinion than anybody the atheist camp has fielded or wanted to field since.

He was very much the accomodationist in a lot of ways. Also in a lot of ways he was like Darwin ... quite reticent in public, inclined to be very significantly harder on religion in private

And Lo, Did Shaker make Sagan in his own image.

[Shaker]

It wasn't my thing but he was good at presenting and communicating the full affective significance of awe and wonder....and he wasn't specifically antireligious. He was a fuller, rounded respectful man in my opinion than anybody the atheist camp has fielded or wanted to field since.

He was very much the accomodationist in a lot of ways. Also in a lot of ways he was like Darwin ... quite reticent in public, inclined to be very significantly harder on religion in private

And Lo, Did Shaker make Sagan in his own image.

Not in the least - I'm the evidence-based guy here Vlad, remember? I'm basing my comments on what I've read.

Try it some time, it's great 

[Nearly Sane]

And of course in The Demon Haunted World, he wrote what is a useful vade mecum for scepticism

[Shaker]

And of course in The Demon Haunted World, he wrote what is a useful vade mecum for scepticism

Absolutely. It's probably amongst the very best, or even the best, one-stop crash course in critical thinking there is.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not in the least - I'm the evidence-based guy here Vlad, remember?

Ah, yes............... in a merely strongly assertive way I s'pose.