Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Any faith system which does not accept Jesus Christ as the divine saviour is on the wrong track.  To suggest there are other routes to salvation is to trivialise what Jesus did to open up the door to heaven.

See, my prediction of your response was borne out immediately. You expect people to take your personal testimony as valid but you yourself will not extend that courtesy to people of other faiths. It is a two-faced position to be in, it's not sustainable.

There is only one truth. Salvation is open to anyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour.

Ah, you have sunken back into bald assertion. You'll need to do better than that if you want to make a convincing case.

[Shaker]

That makes no sense. You cannot have free will without knowing what good and evil is. Otherwise you are not making a free choice between something good and something bad. Yet according to the Bible humanity the knowledge of good and evil is our fallen state.

Just out of interest is this the same fallen state that makes the hearts even of children corrupt, as Spud stated a couple of days back?

[Rhiannon]

That makes no sense. You cannot have free will without knowing what good and evil is. Otherwise you are not making a free choice between something good and something bad. Yet according to the Bible humanity the knowledge of good and evil is our fallen state.

Just out of interest is this the same fallen state that makes the hearts even of children corrupt, as Spud stated a couple of days back?

Rotten with the sin of Adam, I believe.

[ekim]

But we weren't created with free will. That is a result of the Fall. Or are you saying that we were created fallen?

The Fall could never have happened if free will did not exist.  There had to be free will in order to choose to give in to temptation.

That makes no sense. You cannot have free will without knowing what good and evil is. Otherwise you are not making a free choice between something good and something bad. Yet according to the Bible humanity the knowledge of good and evil is our fallen state.

I think that is the point of the fall from grace story.  There is only one 'good' and that is God, according to Jesus.  The choice is between surrendering to the Will of God (the ultimate good) or indulging in self will, based upon what is consumed over time from the tree of knowledge, self centred will or God centred will.

[Shaker]

That makes no sense. You cannot have free will without knowing what good and evil is. Otherwise you are not making a free choice between something good and something bad. Yet according to the Bible humanity the knowledge of good and evil is our fallen state.

Just out of interest is this the same fallen state that makes the hearts even of children corrupt, as Spud stated a couple of days back?

Rotten with the sin of Adam, I believe.

Nice.

[Alan Burns]

But we weren't created with free will. That is a result of the Fall. Or are you saying that we were created fallen?

The Fall could never have happened if free will did not exist.  There had to be free will in order to choose to give in to temptation.

That makes no sense. You cannot have free will without knowing what good and evil is. Otherwise you are not making a free choice between something good and something bad. Yet according to the Bible humanity the knowledge of good and evil is our fallen state.

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came after the fall, but this knowledge is not needed for free will to exist.  Mankind still had the free will to reject God without knowing the true source of this temptation.

[Leonard James]

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came after the fall, but this knowledge is not needed for free will to exist.  Mankind still had the free will to reject God without knowing the true source of this temptation.

That makes no sense. If man didn't know that disobeying "God" was evil until after eating from the tree, he was condemned unjustly.

[Alan Burns]

Any faith system which does not accept Jesus Christ as the divine saviour is on the wrong track.  To suggest there are other routes to salvation is to trivialise what Jesus did to open up the door to heaven.

See, my prediction of your response was borne out immediately. You expect people to take your personal testimony as valid but you yourself will not extend that courtesy to people of other faiths. It is a two-faced position to be in, it's not sustainable.

There is only one truth. Salvation is open to anyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour.

Ah, you have sunken back into bald assertion. You'll need to do better than that if you want to make a convincing case.

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father except through me"

[Shaker]

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father ecept through me"

That's still bald assertion, Al.

It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life

I'm sure Mrs Burns and any small Burns are absolutely thrilled.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father ecept through me"

That's still bald assertion, Al.

It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life

I'm sure Mrs Burns and any small Burns are absolutely thrilled.

They probably are. Any small Shakers - what a thought  -  are in a very sterile and bigoted environment.

[Alan Burns]

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came after the fall, but this knowledge is not needed for free will to exist.  Mankind still had the free will to reject God without knowing the true source of this temptation.

That makes no sense. If man didn't know that disobeying "God" was evil until after eating from the tree, he was condemned unjustly.

The Adam and Eve story is a profound insight into something which happened to separate us from God.  It involves mankind choosing to believe that their self centred will was more important than God's. 

[Leonard James]

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came after the fall, but this knowledge is not needed for free will to exist.  Mankind still had the free will to reject God without knowing the true source of this temptation.

That makes no sense. If man didn't know that disobeying "God" was evil until after eating from the tree, he was condemned unjustly.

The Adam and Eve story is a profound insight into something which happened to separate us from God.  It involves mankind choosing to believe that their self centred will was more important than God's.

It still makes no sense. If Adam didn't know that disobeying "God" was wrong, it was unjust to condemn him for doing so.

[Alan Burns]

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father ecept through me"

That's still bald assertion, Al.

It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life

I'm sure Mrs Burns and any small Burns are absolutely thrilled.

I can assure you that Jesus is the centre of their lives too.  It is a true joy that our 19 year old son and 18 year old daughter still join in with family prayers

[Leonard James]

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father ecept through me"

That's still bald assertion, Al.

It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life

I'm sure Mrs Burns and any small Burns are absolutely thrilled.

I can assure you that Jesus is the centre of their lives too.  It is a true joy that our 19 year old son and 18 year old daughter still join in with family prayers

I find it distasteful that you have brainwashed your children, Alan.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is not a bald assertion.  It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life:
"I am the way, the truth and the life", said Jesus.  "No one can come to the Father ecept through me"

That's still bald assertion, Al.

It is based on the words of Jesus Christ who is the centre of my life

I'm sure Mrs Burns and any small Burns are absolutely thrilled.

I can assure you that Jesus is the centre of their lives too.  It is a true joy that our 19 year old son and 18 year old daughter still join in with family prayers

I find it distasteful that you have brainwashed your children, Alan.

I'm sure Alan will respond, but I have to say that your comment is reprehensible!  On what grounds do you say such a scurrllous thing?  Either substantiate it, or make a decent apology. 

[Leonard James]

On what grounds do you say such a scurrllous thing?  Either substantiate it, or make a decent apology.

On the grounds that he has brought them up to believe that "God" is a fact.

[BashfulAnthony]

On what grounds do you say such a scurrllous thing?  Either substantiate it, or make a decent apology.

On the grounds that he has brought them up to believe that "God" is a fact.

So you know, in your infinite wisdom  (or, rather, lack of it!), how Alan brought up his children!  You insult them by implying they are not capable of thinking for themselves.  Your original comment is both offensive in the extreme, and totally preposterous.   Isn't that right, Shaky?

[Leonard James]

On what grounds do you say such a scurrllous thing?  Either substantiate it, or make a decent apology.

On the grounds that he has brought them up to believe that "God" is a fact.

So you know, in your infinite wisdom  (or, rather, lack of it!), how Alan brought up his children!  You insult them by implying they are not capable of thinking for themselves.  Your original comment is both offensive in the extreme, and totally preposterous.   Isn't that right, Shaky?

Another hysterical outburst from the queen of the board! 

[BashfulAnthony]

On what grounds do you say such a scurrllous thing?  Either substantiate it, or make a decent apology.

On the grounds that he has brought them up to believe that "God" is a fact.

So you know, in your infinite wisdom  (or, rather, lack of it!), how Alan brought up his children!  You insult them by implying they are not capable of thinking for themselves.  Your original comment is both offensive in the extreme, and totally preposterous.   Isn't that right, Shaky?

Another hysterical outburst from the queen of the board! 

Oh dear!  Best form of defence, and all that!  It was you who made the inane comment about Alan's children, and know, in your usual cowardly way, you are trying to deflect attention. 

Shaker, Shaker!  Come here, Leonard has got himself into a mess.

[Leonard James]

Shaker, Shaker!  Come here, Leonard has got himself into a mess.

Thank goodness it's nowhere near as thick as the bullshit that you are usually wallowing in.

(please don't read this, Gordon)

[BashfulAnthony]

Shaker, Shaker!  Come here, Leonard has got himself into a mess.

Thank goodness it's nowhere near as thick as the bullshit that you are usually wallowing in.

(please don't read this, Gordon)

No sign of an apology to Alan  -  surprise, surprise!

And anyway, what would you know about bringing up chidren?

[Leonard James]

Shaker, Shaker!  Come here, Leonard has got himself into a mess.

Thank goodness it's nowhere near as thick as the bullshit that you are usually wallowing in.

(please don't read this, Gordon)

No sign of an apology to Alan  -  surprise, surprise!

And anyway, what would you know about bringing up chidren?

I know that they shouldn't be brought up to believe that any gods are fact. That is teaching them lies.

[Shaker]

No, I'm in full agreement with Len. When I read Alan's comment about his children I found it very, very sad

[BashfulAnthony]

Shaker, Shaker!  Come here, Leonard has got himself into a mess.

Thank goodness it's nowhere near as thick as the bullshit that you are usually wallowing in.

(please don't read this, Gordon)

No sign of an apology to Alan  -  surprise, surprise!

And anyway, what would you know about bringing up chidren?

I know that they shouldn't be brought up to believe that any gods are fact. That is teaching them lies.

I ask you again:  how do you know how Alan brought up
his children.  SAY!

Wait minute: is that the cavalry I hear galloping across the plains?  Shaker to the rescue, Leonard.  Or, more likely, to get you further into the you-know-what.

[Leonard James]

I ask you again:  how do you know how Alan brought up
his children. 

Because I have known him for many years, and have learned as much from our past conversations.

Do you not get tired of being so gloriously wrong?