Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

At time of writing they are all atheist, albeit atheists with 'spiritual' interests.

Why do so many people find it remarkable that atheists have a spiritual, aesthetic side to their nature? Being spiritual is not exclusive to non-atheists.

I don't find it remarkable. Given that in this instance I'm describing my own children, it's not at all surprising, especially to me! But I've always held that everyone should nurture their 'spirit' (ie the part of them that goes beyond the physical) through the things that feed it - art, poetry and literature, music, nature etc.

[Leonard James]

At time of writing they are all atheist, albeit atheists with 'spiritual' interests.

Why do so many people find it remarkable that atheists have a spiritual, aesthetic side to their nature? Being spiritual is not exclusive to non-atheists.

It's because they foolishly think their woo-woo spirituality is the only one.

They refuse to recognise that real spirituality is the profound feeling of awe and admiration inspired by the majesty and beauty of the universe and life.

[Leonard James]

I read a Leonard post and think, yes he is a very spiritual person but I would like him to explain using his favourite subject, evolution, why!!

Gonnagle.

I think I have done so before, Gonners, but here goes again.

When sexual reproduction evolved, and because they had choice, some creatures began to choose one partner over another because they found something more attractive in them. It was the birth of the aesthetic sense, and love.

Inevitably, humans began to project that feeling of preference onto other things which we perceive with our evolved senses. Seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting and touching all lend themselves to preference, choosing one rather than another as 'nice'.

That, putting it very simply, is the way I see it.

[ekim]

At time of writing they are all atheist, albeit atheists with 'spiritual' interests.

Why do so many people find it remarkable that atheists have a spiritual, aesthetic side to their nature? Being spiritual is not exclusive to non-atheists.

It's because they foolishly think their woo-woo spirituality is the only one.

They refuse to recognise that real spirituality is the profound feeling of awe and admiration inspired by the majesty and beauty of the universe and life.

... and that spirituality can arise into awareness from within, without the need of the stimulus of external events.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Birth of the aesthetic senses, a cracking answer, one that makes the grey cells fizzle but I think that is a part answer, not the whole answer.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Leonard,

Birth of the aesthetic senses, a cracking answer, one that makes the grey cells fizzle but I think that is a part answer, not the whole answer.

Gonnagle.

I think it keeps us sane. Without beauty to appreciate in the present we'd go into overwhelm with fear and pain. We'd very quickly descend into madness.

[BashfulAnthony]

I read a Leonard post and think, yes he is a very spiritual person but I would like him to explain using his favourite subject, evolution, why!!

Gonnagle.

I think I have done so before, Gonners, but here goes again.

When sexual reproduction evolved, and because they had choice, some creatures began to choose one partner over another because they found something more attractive in them. It was the birth of the aesthetic sense, and love.

Inevitably, humans began to project that feeling of preference onto other things which we perceive with our evolved senses. Seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting and touching all lend themselves to preference, choosing one rather than another as 'nice'.

That, putting it very simply, is the way I see it.

There are huge numbers to whom anyone will; do, whatever the smell, etc!     

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Birth of the aesthetic senses, a cracking answer, one that makes the grey cells fizzle but I think that is a part answer, not the whole answer.

Gonnagle.

What do you feel is missing?

[Sassy]

I have always had a fascination of science and technology, but I can verify that it all pales into insignificance compared to the wonder and awe of knowing God.

Not so! It all pales into insignificance compared to the wonder of believing you know God.

I think so often people forget that science is not "exact".
Science is manmade and the tests, equipment and everything that goes with it is probably mans best illusion when it comes to the creation of man and also the world and the person God.


You can never prove there is no God using any science...
Just as you cannot say that the results of science are exact about the world, man and God.

It is a useless argument and the Spiritual is NOT ruled by the physical... Neither is it known...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

At time of writing they are all atheist, albeit atheists with 'spiritual' interests.

Why do so many people find it remarkable that atheists have a spiritual, aesthetic side to their nature? Being spiritual is not exclusive to non-atheists.

It's because they foolishly think their woo-woo spirituality is the only one.

They refuse to recognise that real spirituality is the profound feeling of awe and admiration inspired by the majesty and beauty of the universe and life.

Can you send me the data on your last profound feeling of awe etc.
An Excel file will do.

Format:

Awe
Admiration
Inspiration
Majesty
Beauty
Universe

Also I would like from you a breakdown

% obtained from Observed universe
% Obtained from Theoretical universe
% Obtained fro solar eminations from own rectum.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

When sexual reproduction evolved, and because they had choice, some creatures began to choose one partner over another because they found something more attractive in them. It was the birth of the aesthetic sense, and love.

Inevitably, humans began to project that feeling of preference onto other things which we perceive with our evolved senses. Seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting and touching all lend themselves to preference, choosing one rather than another as 'nice'.

That, putting it very simply, is the way I see it.

What do you feel is missing?

Well Leonard you do say putting it simply but how do you go from loving a person to standing in awe of say a beautiful landscape or the majesty of a tiger or elephant.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I read a Leonard post and think, yes he is a very spiritual person but I would like him to explain using his favourite subject, evolution, why!!

Gonnagle.

I think I have done so before, Gonners, but here goes again.

When sexual reproduction evolved, and because they had choice, some creatures began to choose one partner over another because they found something more attractive in them. It was the birth of the aesthetic sense, and love.

Inevitably, humans began to project that feeling of preference onto other things which we perceive with our evolved senses. Seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting and touching all lend themselves to preference, choosing one rather than another as 'nice'.

I think this would sound nice to a guitar music setting.

[Shaker]

Well Leonard you do say putting it simply but how do you go from loving a person to standing in awe of say a beautiful landscape or the majesty of a tiger or elephant.

Edward O. Wilson's biophilia hypothesis covers a lot of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well Leonard you do say putting it simply but how do you go from loving a person to standing in awe of say a beautiful landscape or the majesty of a tiger or elephant.

Edward O. Wilson's biophilia hypothesis covers a lot of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis

''Why can't I enjoy my Garden without reductionist bolleaux taking the edge of it?'' with apologies to Douglas Adams.

[Shaker]

Who types to your dictation Vlad, Stevie Wonder?

[Leonard James]

Well Leonard you do say putting it simply but how do you go from loving a person to standing in awe of say a beautiful landscape or the majesty of a tiger or elephant.

Gonnagle.

I don't think that one leads to the other. You love somebody because in your eyes the combination of their qualities, both physical and mental, are more attractive than those of any other person. That particular combination embodies everything you desire in a partner.

The awe and admiration inspired by other things is rooted more in our individual aesthetic sense, our emotional response to them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who types to your dictation Vlad, Stevie Wonder?

Four words Shaker on Biophilia Hypothesis..........

Annual Extinctions.............Mass deforestation.

Sorry to be a pissin' on yer bonfire.

[Shaker]

You don't actually know what the biophilia hypothesis is, do you?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

I don't think that one leads to the other. You love somebody because in your eyes the combination of their qualities, both physical and mental, are more attractive than those of any other person. That particular combination embodies everything you desire in a partner.

The awe and admiration inspired by other things is rooted more in our individual aesthetic sense, our emotional response to them.

Individual aesthetic sense, sorry but I don't understand what that means, any Christian worth his salt will know what I am talking about when I say, having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy of our Lord, but I would say most people know about a certain joy of watching a beautiful sunset.

Dear Shaker,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis

Very interesting, we all have that cute cuddly feeling when looking at tiger cubs but how does that relate to the awe we have from watching a charging bull elephant or a towering mountainside.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Individual aesthetic sense, sorry but I don't understand what that means, any Christian worth his salt will know what I am talking about when I say, having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy of our Lord, but I would say most people know about a certain joy of watching a beautiful sunset.


Gonnagle.

Ah, I see what you are getting at now!

Yes of course, I too, felt those wonderful moments of peace and joy in the company of Jesus and "God", when I believed in them. It's all the same thing, of course! It's our brain reveling in the feeling of an awesome idea.

The beauty of a lovely landscape, or painting, or piece of music are not objectively real either, they are just our personal mental reaction to them. That in no way detracts from our appreciation of them, the awe that they inspire in us.

That is why I said individual aesthetic sense, because we all differ in our tastes. What I might consider a breathtakingly beautiful prelude by Chopin, to the next guy it is just somebody playing a piano.

[ekim]

Dear Leonard,

Individual aesthetic sense, sorry but I don't understand what that means, any Christian worth his salt will know what I am talking about when I say, having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy of our Lord, but I would say most people know about a certain joy of watching a beautiful sunset.


Gonnagle.

Ah, I see what you are getting at now!

Yes of course, I too, felt those wonderful moments of peace and joy in the company of Jesus and "God", when I believed in them. It's all the same thing, of course! It's our brain reveling in the feeling of an awesome idea.

The beauty of a lovely landscape, or painting, or piece of music are not objectively real either, they are just our personal mental reaction to them. That in no way detracts from our appreciation of them, the awe that they inspire in us.

That is why I said individual aesthetic sense, because we all differ in our tastes. What I might consider a breathtakingly beautiful prelude by Chopin, to the next guy it is just somebody playing a piano.

Gonnagle.
I would put it slightly differently by saying ' having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy' without attributing it to a Lord.  The emphasis would be on the stillness of the quiet moment out of which arises joy.  Similarly, as regards the beautiful sunset, some might refer to this as stunning.  In other words the mind is 'stunned' into stillness from which arises joy.  From inner stillness, joy can be exported and doesn't have to rely upon external events for its initiation.

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Leonard,

Individual aesthetic sense, sorry but I don't understand what that means, any Christian worth his salt will know what I am talking about when I say, having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy of our Lord, but I would say most people know about a certain joy of watching a beautiful sunset.


Gonnagle.

Ah, I see what you are getting at now!

Yes of course, I too, felt those wonderful moments of peace and joy in the company of Jesus and "God", when I believed in them. It's all the same thing, of course! It's our brain reveling in the feeling of an awesome idea.

The beauty of a lovely landscape, or painting, or piece of music are not objectively real either, they are just our personal mental reaction to them. That in no way detracts from our appreciation of them, the awe that they inspire in us.

That is why I said individual aesthetic sense, because we all differ in our tastes. What I might consider a breathtakingly beautiful prelude by Chopin, to the next guy it is just somebody playing a piano.

Very much my take on these things, Leonard.

[Leonard James]

Very much my take on these things, Leonard.

Then I am in good company! 

[Rhiannon]

Dear Leonard,

I don't think that one leads to the other. You love somebody because in your eyes the combination of their qualities, both physical and mental, are more attractive than those of any other person. That particular combination embodies everything you desire in a partner.

The awe and admiration inspired by other things is rooted more in our individual aesthetic sense, our emotional response to them.

Individual aesthetic sense, sorry but I don't understand what that means, any Christian worth his salt will know what I am talking about when I say, having a quiet moment and knowing the Joy of our Lord, but I would say most people know about a certain joy of watching a beautiful sunset.

Dear Shaker,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis

Very interesting, we all have that cute cuddly feeling when looking at tiger cubs but how does that relate to the awe we have from watching a charging bull elephant or a towering mountainside.

Gonnagle.

The sunset is God, The charging bull is God. The terrifying waterfall is God. The mountain is God. The bug on the bottom of your shoe is God.

Reality according to Rhiannon.

[Shaker]

Reminds me of Bishop John Robinson (Honest to God chappy) who said that people need to cast aside their old conception/definition of a personal deity and see God as much in cancer as in a sunset.

He was dying of cancer at the time so it wasn't exactly a flippant throwaway remark made by someone who knew nothing about it.

It comes across to me as pantheism through and through, but that's OK - institutional religions could do with a lot more of that.