Searching for GOD...

[BashfulAnthony]

Then explain, don't just assert, why his remark is inconsistent with pantheism.

I have already explained that what you quote talks of God being ''in'' things. This is Panentheism. You ignored this distinction.

I know what panentheism is; I'm waiting to hear your ... well, I'll call it reasoning for now as to why Robinson's remark is as inconsistent with pantheism as you insist it is.

I'm still waiting.

Shaker if you know what panentheism is then you will know the distinction.
It is down to you to demonstrate how a panentheistic statement is Pantheistic.

Good luck.

Give him a while:  he's looking it up, right now!     

He is good but is he THAT good?

No, but he thinks he is!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shaker if you know what panentheism is then you will know the distinction.
It is down to you to demonstrate how a panentheistic statement is Pantheistic.

No, it is down to you to back up your assertion that Robinson's statement is inconsistent with pantheism. I don't need luck; I need you to shore up your claim with a sound argument.

Your pantheism(which was never substantiated) claim has been disproved by sound definition. The Robinson quote you use is Panentheistic because as I have said 3 times before he talks of God being in things. rather than God being things.

So, as they say, get out of that.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Post 503, our brain revelling in a awesome idea, which brings our conversation spiralling all the way back to my question of "Why".

But I have to say the thread has been jolly interesting, pantheism, yes Jakswan tried to hang that label on me, nope, enough to say my Christianity is my home not my prison.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

[savillerow]

"the temptations of the devil" I read stuff like this and at my age its just plain daft to me.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Post 503, our brain revelling in a awesome idea, which brings our conversation spiralling all the way back to my question of "Why".

Simply because it makes us feel good. It's a perfectly natural reaction.

But I have to say the thread has been jolly interesting, pantheism, yes Jakswan tried to hang that label on me, nope, enough to say my Christianity is my home not my prison.

You are aware, I'm sure, that long time offenders are so at home in prison that on release they do something to get back in again. It's much easier nowadays than fending for yourself in freedom.

 In that sense, religious beliefs are a more comfortable refuge than facing the uncertainty of admitting we don't know. 

[torridon]

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

People of other faiths may lay that charge against your faith, muslims for instance see christianity as a heretical cult that distances people from God by interposing the personality of Jesus; and the only true path of righteousness lies in submitting to the will of god directly by observance of the Pillars of Islam. All such onetruewayism is dysfunctional, eventually, imv, there cannot be one single truth, but rather a myriad of perspectives, and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

[ippy]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

At what age did you decide to put your brain to one side and procede to wallow in this unsupported nonsense?

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

At what age did you decide to put your brain to one side and procede to wallow in this unsupported nonsense?

ippy

Ah, dipping into your templates again!

[SusanDoris]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

At what age did you decide to put your brain to one side and procede to wallow in this unsupported nonsense?

ippy

Ah, dipping into your templates again!

Yes I'm sure I've seen that one before.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

People of other faiths may lay that charge against your faith, muslims for instance see christianity as a heretical cult that distances people from God by interposing the personality of Jesus; and the only true path of righteousness lies in submitting to the will of god directly by observance of the Pillars of Islam. All such onetruewayism is dysfunctional, eventually, imv, there cannot be one single truth, but rather a myriad of perspectives, and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

Divine knowledge, knowledge of the divine is limited by the boundaries set by that religion. One religion may set up an impenetrable monotheism which suits the 'hard line' another will say that God is more accessible and more dynamic.

You have IMHO have to look at the relative remoteness of God and how far they are along the deistic spectrum.

[ippy]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

At what age did you decide to put your brain to one side and procede to wallow in this unsupported nonsense?

ippy

Ah, dipping into your templates again!

Some cases, yes cases, are far worse than others cases like this Alan Burns are more than sad; if there were even a shred of credibility that could be substantiated, the whole of this subject of his would become worth debating, so unless or until. 

ippy

[floo]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

At what age did you decide to put your brain to one side and procede to wallow in this unsupported nonsense?

ippy

Sadly a good number of the more extreme Christians seem to compartmentalise their brains so that logic doesn't impinge on their belief system!

[Rhiannon]

Then explain, don't just assert, why his remark is inconsistent with pantheism.

I have already explained that what you quote talks of God being ''in'' things. This is Panentheism. You ignored this distinction.

Panentheism can mean seeing God in things as well as believing God to be external - a bit like Quakers talking of seeing 'that of God' within everything, often now referred to as 'the Light'. But it can also mean that everything is God, but God is not everything ie. the universe or cosmos is God, but God also exists outside of that.

[Rhiannon]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Ourselves.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Then explain, don't just assert, why his remark is inconsistent with pantheism.

I have already explained that what you quote talks of God being ''in'' things. This is Panentheism. You ignored this distinction.

Panentheism can mean seeing God in things as well as believing God to be external - a bit like Quakers talking of seeing 'that of God' within everything, often now referred to as 'the Light'. But it can also mean that everything is God, but God is not everything ie. the universe or cosmos is God, but God also exists outside of that.

I don't think that's the pantheism/panentheism Shaker is referring to, Shaker has not recognised the term Panentheism. One form of Pantheism is pure pantheism where the term God is in fact totally superfluous and so that type of Pantheism is in fact, effectively Atheism. That I would move is the Pantheism Shaker refers to.

Also Shaker suggests that Robinson wanted people to abandon a personal God. This was not the case since Robinson apparently believed in the Love of God to the end.

I stand though to be corrected with improved data. Did Robinson believe in your offered definition of Panentheism or mine which I'm sure you acknowledge is the more literal definition?

[ippy]

Then explain, don't just assert, why his remark is inconsistent with pantheism.

I have already explained that what you quote talks of God being ''in'' things. This is Panentheism. You ignored this distinction.

Panentheism can mean seeing God in things as well as believing God to be external - a bit like Quakers talking of seeing 'that of God' within everything, often now referred to as 'the Light'. But it can also mean that everything is God, but God is not everything ie. the universe or cosmos is God, but God also exists outside of that.

So wherever the pan comes from I would imagine either Greek or Latin it would still have the same meaning probably "all", nothing magic about the pan bit only the theism.

ippy
 

[2Corrie]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

[ippy]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

" It looks like you've all been let out for the day.

ippy

[Shaker]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

A great recommendation for those who love nothing better than abasement and have no higher ambition in life than to be a serf.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

" It looks like you've all been let out for the day.

ippy

Whereas you have a man in white trousers and a sleeveless white shirt standing behind you?

[Rhiannon]

Then explain, don't just assert, why his remark is inconsistent with pantheism.

I have already explained that what you quote talks of God being ''in'' things. This is Panentheism. You ignored this distinction.

Panentheism can mean seeing God in things as well as believing God to be external - a bit like Quakers talking of seeing 'that of God' within everything, often now referred to as 'the Light'. But it can also mean that everything is God, but God is not everything ie. the universe or cosmos is God, but God also exists outside of that.

I don't think that's the pantheism/panentheism Shaker is referring to, Shaker has not recognised the term Panentheism. One form of Pantheism is pure pantheism where the term God is in fact totally superfluous and so that type of Pantheism is in fact, effectively Atheism. That I would move is the Pantheism Shaker refers to.

Also Shaker suggests that Robinson wanted people to abandon a personal God. This was not the case since Robinson apparently believed in the Love of God to the end.

I stand though to be corrected with improved data. Did Robinson believe in your offered definition of Panentheism or mine which I'm sure you acknowledge is the more literal definition?

I've no idea. I was just pointing out that there are different ways of understanding panentheism. I fall into the 'God is everything but everything is not God' category - not 'God is in everything', which is slightly different.

[Alan Burns]

Dear Alan,

God is endeavoring to make Himself known to us.

Oxford English.

try hard to do or achieve something:

God does not endeavour, God does, little gods endeavour.

Gonnagle.

OK, I concede that God has made Himself know to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ, but we have the problem that this truth is being hidden from most of us by something which is trying to separate us from God.  The temptations of the Devil are evident in both the old and new testaments, and if the Devil is bold enough to try to tempt God Himself, we need to be very wary of this evil and not pretend that it does not exist.

So your version of the deity is too weak to stand up to dear old Satan?

The Devil tried and failed to tempt Jesus.  Jesus claimed the final victory by submitting to His torture and death.  The victory was not for Him - it was done for us!

[Shaker]

But aren't you the one going around saying that the Devil is interfering with (as Rhiannon put it) people's wi-fi connection to God?