Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3900202 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #625 on: June 08, 2015, 09:44:18 AM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Seriously!!! No not seriously, but on a historical note, very serious, as a Mod you should really look at it from a forum historical point, as in a Vlad, Leonard,Bashers and Shaker point of view.

Gonnagle.

How about looking at it from a human point of view? Dogs are worth more than people who don't agree with you? People are to blame if God doesn't show up for them?

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #626 on: June 08, 2015, 09:49:14 AM »
Dear Me,

Well I think the points goes to Vlad and Bashers on this one, well fought lads, round two coming to a town near you soon. 8)

Gonnagle.

Seriously? Dogs are worth more than atheists and I'm to blame for not having faith because I can't 'hack' God?

Dogs are worth more than some Christians who drag the faith through the mire with their constant unpleasantness towards people who think differently to them, be they other Christians or non believers!

That's equally wrong-headed.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #627 on: June 08, 2015, 09:53:05 AM »

Not a good analogy  -  I love yapping dogs;  and the huge, huge, majority of dogs are much more worthy than any atheist.

That's quite a shocking statement. How is a dog more worthy than human beings who have no belief in God?

Well there is precedent in scripture for this, from Jesus himself, no less; see Matthew 15:22 - 28

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #628 on: June 08, 2015, 09:55:20 AM »

"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists."   Mahatma Gandhi.    A great man!

Indeed, for those that understand what he says.

Atheists don't fight against "God", because they are sure he doesn't exist. They fight against those who try to mislead people by claiming that he does.

There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. --Mignon McLaughlin

Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God. -- Tom Stoppard

If atheism spread, it would become a religion as intolerable as the ancient ones. --Gustave le Bon.

They're all about you, Leonard, all of you atheists

Not really B A we just take a realistic view, please stay taken in or indoctrinated whatever it was that took you to the equivalent of fairyland.

Provided religion isn't imposed on the overall population and we manage get rid of it's unwarranted privileges, it's manageable. 

ippy

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #629 on: June 08, 2015, 09:58:38 AM »
Dear Me,

Well I think the points goes to Vlad and Bashers on this one, well fought lads, round two coming to a town near you soon. 8)

Gonnagle.

Seriously? Dogs are worth more than atheists and I'm to blame for not having faith because I can't 'hack' God?

Dogs are worth more than some Christians who drag the faith through the mire with their constant unpleasantness towards people who think differently to them, be they other Christians or non believers!

Equally shocking.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #630 on: June 08, 2015, 10:25:24 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?

I have told Alan more times than I can remember that nobody can believe something if their reason tells them it isn't true.

He can bluster as much as he likes, but he can't choose not to believe because his reason tells him "God" exists. For the same reason atheists can't choose to believe.

He doesn't seem able to take it in.

I find the 'if only you'd let God in' stuff very difficult. I think most of us have tried that at some point?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #631 on: June 08, 2015, 10:31:23 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?

I have told Alan more times than I can remember that nobody can believe something if their reason tells them it isn't true.

He can bluster as much as he likes, but he can't choose not to believe because his reason tells him "God" exists. For the same reason atheists can't choose to believe.

He doesn't seem able to take it in.

I find the 'if only you'd let God in' stuff very difficult. I think most of us have tried that at some point?

I tried 'to let God in' when I was a 'born again' but it wasn't interested!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #632 on: June 08, 2015, 10:33:17 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?
I chose to let Him into my life.  He then made Himself known to me in a most profound way.  When I was younger, I believed in God but I did not act much upon this belief.  I was drawn to God when I chose to attend a series of "Life in the Spirit" seminars, and it was through prayer and scripture during these seminars that He made His real presence felt.  It was truly a life changing experience that began my personal relationship with Him.  I no longer just believe in Him, because now I know Him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #633 on: June 08, 2015, 10:39:08 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?

I have told Alan more times than I can remember that nobody can believe something if their reason tells them it isn't true.

He can bluster as much as he likes, but he can't choose not to believe because his reason tells him "God" exists. For the same reason atheists can't choose to believe.

He doesn't seem able to take it in.

I find the 'if only you'd let God in' stuff very difficult. I think most of us have tried that at some point?

How can you try to let something in which you have no belief in? Seems meaningless to me. It must start with some germ of belief which you then let develop through study etc but if you have no belief how can you do it? When I was growing up I just 'went through the motions' regarding God and religion - never really thought about it much and it was just something you did/said without any meaning to it - a sort of social norm. I then found not everyone believed and realised I didn't have to go through the motions. I've never tried to let God in but never denied or rejected God, I just don't have any belief in God's existence. I think for people of faith it is hard to understand this, and it can be hard to explain without using analogies which many people then find insulting to their faith.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #634 on: June 08, 2015, 10:41:14 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?
I chose to let Him into my life.  He then made Himself known to me in a most profound way.  When I was younger, I believed in God but I did not act much upon this belief.  I was drawn to God when I chose to attend a series of "Life in the Spirit" seminars, and it was through prayer and scripture during these seminars that He made His real presence felt.  It was truly a life changing experience that began my personal relationship with Him.  I no longer just believe in Him, because now I know Him.

There you go, you had a prior belief which you let develop through study etc Someone who has no prior belief is in a different situation.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #635 on: June 08, 2015, 10:49:20 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?

I have told Alan more times than I can remember that nobody can believe something if their reason tells them it isn't true.

He can bluster as much as he likes, but he can't choose not to believe because his reason tells him "God" exists. For the same reason atheists can't choose to believe.

He doesn't seem able to take it in.

I find the 'if only you'd let God in' stuff very difficult. I think most of us have tried that at some point?

How can you try to let something in which you have no belief in? Seems meaningless to me. It must start with some germ of belief which you then let develop through study etc but if you have no belief how can you do it? When I was growing up I just 'went through the motions' regarding God and religion - never really thought about it much and it was just something you did/said without any meaning to it - a sort of social norm. I then found not everyone believed and realised I didn't have to go through the motions. I've never tried to let God in but never denied or rejected God, I just don't have any belief in God's existence. I think for people of faith it is hard to understand this, and it can be hard to explain without using analogies which many people then find insulting to their faith.

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.

I had a very deep faith and didn't seek to lose it. To me to say that I'd have faith if only I tried harder is both patronising and insulting when coming from someone who knows absolutely jack about me and my life, and I think that true for any unbeliever - it's not something we choose.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #636 on: June 08, 2015, 10:50:21 AM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Post 636, I will now step back from this discussion but not before I explain my flippant post, I was simply having a small dig at the four posters in question, those guys have been at it since Adam was a boy, I am a big fan of all four posters and compared to them I am but a rookie.

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #637 on: June 08, 2015, 10:53:21 AM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Post 636, I will now step back from this discussion but not before I explain my flippant post, I was simply having a small dig at the four posters in question, those guys have been at it since Adam was a boy, I am a big fan of all four posters and compared to them I am but a rookie.

Gonnagle.

Ah, now that I understand, I look at them and see four blokes each giving as good as they get and coming back for more. So long as they don't derail interesting discussions I see no harm in it.   ;)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #638 on: June 08, 2015, 10:56:58 AM »

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.

I never said church-going, only went once apart from family weddings etc For me it was just the casual acceptance that God existed without any thought given to it and the social norms of singing hymns at weddings etc. I never really gave any of it any thought until I realised that not everyone believed and maybe also that some people really believed. I never believed but just did what others did as it seemed the norm - a sort of social ritual.

Quote
I had a very deep faith and didn't seek to lose it. To me to say that I'd have faith if only I tried harder is both patronising and insulting when coming from someone who knows absolutely jack about me and my life, and I think that true for any unbeliever - it's not something we choose.

I've never believed so hard to comment - other than I agree we can't just choose to believe or not believe.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #639 on: June 08, 2015, 11:03:00 AM »

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.

I never said church-going, only went once apart from family weddings etc For me it was just the casual acceptance that God existed without any thought given to it and the social norms of singing hymns at weddings etc. I never really gave any of it any thought until I realised that not everyone believed and maybe also that some people really believed. I never believed but just did what others did as it seemed the norm - a sort of social ritual.

Quote
I had a very deep faith and didn't seek to lose it. To me to say that I'd have faith if only I tried harder is both patronising and insulting when coming from someone who knows absolutely jack about me and my life, and I think that true for any unbeliever - it's not something we choose.

I've never believed so hard to comment - other than I agree we can't just choose to believe or not believe.

Oh, ok, a kind of cultural Christianity. I was raised a Christian so can't get the concept of singing hymns without them having a meaning. I find singing hymns very difficult now - I tend to stay silent in church now when I need to go.

I haven't attended church with my children for seven or eight years now, and was surprised recently to discover that they don't like singing hymns.


Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #640 on: June 08, 2015, 11:10:47 AM »

Did you choose to believe in God? I was sure you previously stated 'he' found you?
I chose to let Him into my life.  He then made Himself known to me in a most profound way.  When I was younger, I believed in God but I did not act much upon this belief.  I was drawn to God when I chose to attend a series of "Life in the Spirit" seminars, and it was through prayer and scripture during these seminars that He made His real presence felt.  It was truly a life changing experience that began my personal relationship with Him.  I no longer just believe in Him, because now I know Him.

I'm sorry, Alan, you didn't choose to let him into your life, he was already there in your mind. You obviously believed he existed or you couldn't have said that you chose to let him in.

You just happen to be near the credulous end of the credulity/scepticism graph.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #641 on: June 08, 2015, 11:29:19 AM »

I'm sorry, Alan, you didn't choose to let him into your life, he was already there in your mind. You obviously believed he existed or you couldn't have said that you chose to let him in.

You just happen to be near the credulous end of the credulity/scepticism graph.
Len, you seem to be very sure about what is going on in my mind.  All I can say is that when God makes His presence felt, it is truly mind-blowing and beyond anything you would have expected.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #642 on: June 08, 2015, 11:35:40 AM »

Len, you seem to be very sure about what is going on in my mind.

Only regarding the fact that you can't choose to believe something if your reason tells you it isn't true. Nobody can!

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All I can say is that when God makes His presence felt, it is truly mind-blowing and beyond anything you would have expected.

I can understand that perfectly.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #643 on: June 08, 2015, 11:36:47 AM »
"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists."   Mahatma Gandhi.    A great man!
That quote (from a highly flawed and times highly unpleasant individual, by the way) would be correct if and only if there was no such thing as unearned and unwarranted religious privilege, religious oppression, religious censorship, religious cruelty.

But, alas, there is. Atheists/anti-theists don't fight against what they don't think exists - God - but what patently does - the things just listed. So the work goes on.
 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 12:08:45 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #644 on: June 08, 2015, 11:58:53 AM »

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.
This is one of the things that Pascal prescribed to atheists as part of his Wager - going through the motions of religious observance for long enough for it to 'take' or rub off, as a means of instilling belief. Clearly it doesn't work, though.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #645 on: June 08, 2015, 12:06:06 PM »

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.
This is one of the things that Pascal prescribed to atheists as part of his Wager - going through the motions of religious observance for long enough for it to 'take' or rub off, as a means of instilling belief. Clearly it doesn't work, though.

No, I don't think it works. What can work is that you find you are getting something out of it. That's why I'm fairly relaxed about children being raised religious - if they don't get anything out of it they'll walk away.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #646 on: June 08, 2015, 12:41:54 PM »

Personally I think in going through the motions of church-going you are allowing for a spark of something to grab you - if that something actually exists.
This is one of the things that Pascal prescribed to atheists as part of his Wager - going through the motions of religious observance for long enough for it to 'take' or rub off, as a means of instilling belief. Clearly it doesn't work, though.

No, I don't think it works.

It works if the child or adult subjected to it is inclined to credulity ... otherwise, no.

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What can work is that you find you are getting something out of it. That's why I'm fairly relaxed about children being raised religious - if they don't get anything out of it they'll walk away.

I don't think that's a good idea, because of the danger mentioned above. The susceptible ones will be ensnared before their ability to reason has developed fully, as I was.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #647 on: June 08, 2015, 01:11:07 PM »
Why? You've reasoned your way out of faith. If it doesnt work for you, you will have no choice other than to stop believing.

Credulous people will believe anything. Chesterton wasn't entirely wide of the mark when he said that the danger of not believing in God is not a belief in nothing, but a belief in anything. Someone who is credulous will replace Christianity with new age, Law of Attraction stuff or Angels, or spiritualism.

I don't think faith of any kind is always about credulity though. Not all believers are Alan types. I like Ian Hislop on faith: he says he sits in church and sometimes thinks this is all shit, and sometimes this is all that matters.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #648 on: June 08, 2015, 01:13:41 PM »
I like Ian Hislop on faith: he says he sits in church and sometimes thinks this is all shit, and sometimes this is all that matters.

Thank goodness I wasn't cursed with middle of the road genes!  :)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #649 on: June 08, 2015, 01:22:55 PM »
The problem as I see it though is that if a religious mindset is inculcated from a very early age, reasoning your way out of it is made so much more difficult. I was watching The Wright Stuff a couple of weeks ago and Wrighty labelled himself a lapsed Catholic, as he has done a number of times in the past. (He had a Catholic education, which he refers to from time to time if the subject arises). I don't know his views on God; if I had to put my money anywhere I would say that he probably regards himself, as so many do, as an agnostic in the popular sense. But the lapsed Catholic business to me is very strange. It seems to indicate that Catholicism still has some grip, some claim. I would have thought that you're either Catholic or not; if you're not, you're not and that's all there is to it. If you don't believe in and don't adhere to Catholic dogma and doctrine you're not a Catholic no matter what you may have been and done and believed in the past. Regarding yourself as a lapsed Catholic strikes me as handing too much to Catholicism; it's giving it still some influence over and purchase on your life, surely.

This is all easy for me to say; I've never been a believer in my life, not even for five minutes, so have never had any beliefs of that kind to lose. I've read and heard enough however to know that in some cases, when people do lose religious beliefs in which they've been raised, it can be a horrible business that really messes people up for a long time.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.