Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3869950 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #650 on: June 08, 2015, 01:32:26 PM »
I've read and heard enough however to know that in some cases, when people do lose religious beliefs in which they've been raised, it can be a horrible business that really messes people up for a long time.

Therein lies the danger of enlightening them. Taking away what has been the main pillar of their reason for living, without demonstrating to them that life is wonderful without it, is fraught with danger.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #651 on: June 08, 2015, 01:34:33 PM »
While true, the danger of going too far the other way is of infantilising people, treating them as weak-minded and feeble sorts best left alone in case they're upset.

It's a difficult one, Len.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #652 on: June 08, 2015, 01:38:37 PM »
While true, the danger of going too far the other way is of infantilising people, treating them as weak-minded and feeble sorts best left alone in case they're upset.

It's a difficult one, Len.

In no way are they weak-minded, they are just over credulous and under sceptical, through no fault of their own.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #653 on: June 08, 2015, 01:54:04 PM »
While true, the danger of going too far the other way is of infantilising people, treating them as weak-minded and feeble sorts best left alone in case they're upset.

It's a difficult one, Len.

In no way are they weak-minded, they are just over credulous and under sceptical, through no fault of their own.

 "Searching for GOD..." anyone on this quest is in for a very long job, why not try looking for the Loch Ness Monster the odds should be a bit better on finding the monster.

ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #654 on: June 08, 2015, 03:19:26 PM »
The problem as I see it though is that if a religious mindset is inculcated from a very early age, reasoning your way out of it is made so much more difficult. I was watching The Wright Stuff a couple of weeks ago and Wrighty labelled himself a lapsed Catholic, as he has done a number of times in the past. (He had a Catholic education, which he refers to from time to time if the subject arises). I don't know his views on God; if I had to put my money anywhere I would say that he probably regards himself, as so many do, as an agnostic in the popular sense. But the lapsed Catholic business to me is very strange. It seems to indicate that Catholicism still has some grip, some claim. I would have thought that you're either Catholic or not; if you're not, you're not and that's all there is to it. If you don't believe in and don't adhere to Catholic dogma and doctrine you're not a Catholic no matter what you may have been and done and believed in the past. Regarding yourself as a lapsed Catholic strikes me as handing too much to Catholicism; it's giving it still some influence over and purchase on your life, surely.

This is all easy for me to say; I've never been a believer in my life, not even for five minutes, so have never had any beliefs of that kind to lose. I've read and heard enough however to know that in some cases, when people do lose religious beliefs in which they've been raised, it can be a horrible business that really messes people up for a long time.

Catholicism has a very distinct culture. I think we've ignored for too long the cultural aspect of belonging to a church; that culture remains even though faith is lost. In the case of Catholicism I would say that the cultural tie is as strong as it is for a secular Jew.

My maternal grandmother was a RC of Irish descent who gave up practicing her faith during the War - she wasn't overly keen on the Pope being pally with Mussolini. But once a Catholic, always a Catholic - she stayed a Christian but would never attend another church except for weddings etc. it must have cost her very, very dearly not to take Communion again.

My mum was raised an Anglo-Catholic, but with a very strong mistrust of organised religion, and I managed to disappoint my mother three times over - once by going to church, once by announcing my intention to become a priest, and once by breaking it to her that I'd found a different path entirely.

I know that my grandmother wasn't a lapsed Catholic in the sense you mean, but I did grow up aware of that very strong sense of identity that she had, not merely in terms of belief but of who she was.

horsethorn

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #655 on: June 08, 2015, 03:24:02 PM »
Sorry to drag this back, but I'm just catching up...

Reminds me of Bishop John Robinson (Honest to God chappy) who said that people need to cast aside their old conception/definition of a personal deity and see God as much in cancer as in a sunset.

He was dying of cancer at the time so it wasn't exactly a flippant throwaway remark made by someone who knew nothing about it.

It comes across to me as pantheism through and through, but that's OK - institutional religions could do with a lot more of that.
It's Panentheism. Pantheism is where everything is God. Panentheism is the idea of God being in things.

Horsethorn has his own interpretation of panentheism.

No, horsethorn doesn't have his own interpretation.

"Panentheism (meaning "all-in-God", from the Ancient Greek πᾶν pân ("all"), ἐν en ("in") and Θεός Theós ("God")) is a belief system which posits that the divine – whether as a single God, number of gods, or other form of "cosmic animating force"[1] – interpenetrates every part of the universe and extends, timelessly (and, presumably, spacelessly) beyond it. Unlike pantheism, which holds that the divine and the universe are identical,[2] panentheism maintains a distinction between the divine and non-divine and the significance of both.[3]

In pantheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself,[clarification needed] while in panentheism, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. God is viewed as the eternal animating force[clarify] maintaining the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe" (wiki)

Panentheism is not 'god being in things'. That would be Theoenpanism.

ht
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"We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out." (Delenn, Babylon 5)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #656 on: June 08, 2015, 03:30:36 PM »
In no way are they weak-minded, they are just over credulous and under sceptical, through no fault of their own.

Certainly no fault of their own.

Rhiannon's posts are always interesting and just a few days ago - certainly less than a week, I'm sure - she said something that I found especially thought-provoking to the effect that some people just seem to be born with a mystical bent, predisposed to find religious concepts not just plausible but believeable. If this is true, and I suspect it may very well be, the corollary of this is that some people are also born to be non-mystical, and I have to say that I would place myself in this group. The other night I was lying in bed leafing through Eknath Easwaran's Classics of Indian Spirituality, a three-volume box set of the Upanishads, the Dhammpada and the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe some remember that this was an item that I put on my list of essential desert island books recently. As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them. (Nietzsche called them afterworldsmen). My current signature from the late, great American environmentalist Edward Abbey sums it up for me: to him and to me, to hold these ideas as true is an insult to the real, the true and the actual, right here and right now in the only mode of existence of which we can be entirely certain. I suppose I'm just one of those dullards to bound up in this life now to place any credence in concepts of anything and anywhere else. "Other world? There is no other world. Here or nowhere is the whole fact," as Ralph Waldo Emerson put it.

Again, it's easy for me to say. I'm in good health, well-fed, well-clothed. If I get sick I toddle off to the GP for a short course of antibiotics and if it gets chilly I put the central heating on. While things were relatively tight whilst growing up, I've never known real hunger, want or deprivation in my life. Or really desperate tragedy either, come to that. Plenty do. The standard answer to that, in my view, is that even if you're starving and do know truly horrible poverty, want and deprivation, while the desire for there to be a God to believe in is perfectly understandable from a psychological point of view, that state of affairs doesn't somehow suddenly make the existence of the personal, personalistic, interested god of theism any more likely actually to exist.

It seems to me that if you consider yourself to be (for example) a Christian, you have one foot in this world but, if not a foot, then at least a toe - even if it's a little toe - in another realm where a miracle-working god-man born of a virgin who rose from the dead two thousand years ago is still somehow alive, where the regularities of nature can be suspended at the whim of a deity and all the rest of it. Christians would quite rightly counter that they live in the "real" world and get married, raise kinds, push the trolley round Asda and take the car in for an MoT exactly the same as anybody else. All true enough. But I don't see how you can regard yourself as a Christian or any other kind of theist in any tolerably traditional sense and not have this whole other raft of beliefs about what constitutes reality which find no support in science or, for me at any rate, in reason or logic. This - believing all this - is absolutely and utterly incomprehensible to me. Whether this intellectual and temperamental divide is basically genetic I have no idea; something has to explain it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 07:49:58 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #657 on: June 08, 2015, 03:36:22 PM »
Some people escape into mysticism or faith, some into EastEnders and Harry Potter. Some of us even believe our own stories about ourselves and those around us and call it real life. Crazy, isn't it?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #658 on: June 08, 2015, 03:40:58 PM »
But once a Catholic, always a Catholic

That's the issue, though, surely. I don't understand why you would choose to define yourself by something that used to be the case but is the case no longer; if you're not a believing, practising Catholic, to regard yourself as a lapsed Catholic seems to hand Catholicism some sort of hold over you still, and I don't get it.

I can only try and explain it by analogy drawn from something in my own life that I do understand: I've been a vegetarian since I was 21 and largely vegan thereafter, so it would be literally and factually true to say that I used to eat meat (now many moons ago!). But I don't label myself as a former meat eater. The fact that I'm a vegetarian/vegan-ish tells you broadly what my eating habits are now, but not what they were years ago. I get the same instinctive reaction when people say that they're a recovering alcoholic, for instance, meaning that they used to abuse alcohol but don't now. This is based on the very prevalent but in my view demonstrably false AA disease model of alcoholism, which insists that you're doomed never to be anything but an alcoholic for the rest of your days; even if you're not drinking, you're just an alcoholic who's not drinking at the moment but is liable to topple off the wagon at any moment.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #659 on: June 08, 2015, 03:46:50 PM »
It's probably best to think of it like a national identity; we don't stop being British/English/Scots/whatever just because we move to France. But if we raise our children in France and then they do the same, the Britishness in them will become diluted to the point of disappearing. I don't identify as culturally Catholic because my grandmother's Catholicism came to me in such a watered down form it's been easy to jettison.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #660 on: June 08, 2015, 04:19:08 PM »
"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists."   Mahatma Gandhi.    A great man!
That quote (from a highly flawed and times highly unpleasant individual, by the way) would be correct if and only if there was no such thing as unearned and unwarranted religious privilege, religious oppression, religious censorship, religious cruelty.

But, alas, there is. Atheists/anti-theists don't fight against what they don't think exists - God - but what patently does - the things just listed. So the work goes on.

Whatever your cynical take on him is, his comment was spot-on.   And, of course, that's why you replied with your too-frequent bile.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #661 on: June 08, 2015, 04:24:25 PM »
But once a Catholic, always a Catholic

That's the issue, though, surely. I don't understand why you would choose to define yourself by something that used to be the case but is the case no longer; if you're not a believing, practising Catholic, to regard yourself as a lapsed Catholic seems to hand Catholicism some sort of hold over you still, and I don't get it.

I can only try and explain it by analogy drawn from something in my own life that I do understand: I've been a vegetarian since I was 21 and largely vegan thereafter, so it would be literally and factually true to say that I used to eat meat (now many moons ago!). But I don't label myself as a former meat eater. The fact that I'm a vegetarian/vegan-ish tells you broadly what my eating habits are now, but not what they were years ago. I get the same instinctive reaction when people say that they're a recovering alcoholic, for instance, meaning that they used to abuse alcohol but don't now. This is based on the very prevalent but in my view demonstrably false AA disease model of alcoholism, which insists that you're doomed never to be anything but an alcoholic for the rest of your days; even if you're not drinking, you're just an alcoholic who's not drinking at the moment but is liable to topple off the wagon at any moment.

You are either a vegan, or you aren't.  it's a bit like those who say, "it's fairly unique,"  it either is or isn't.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #662 on: June 08, 2015, 04:24:47 PM »
In no way are they weak-minded, they are just over credulous and under sceptical, through no fault of their own.

Certainly no fault of their own.

Rhiannon's posts are always interesting and just a few days ago - certainly less than a week, I'm sure - she said something that I found especially thought-provoking to the effect that some people just seem to be born with a mystical bent, predisposed to find religious concepts not just plausible but believeable. If this is true, and I suspect it may very well be, the corollary of this is that some people are also born to be non-mystical, and I have to say that I would place myself in this group. The other night I was lying in bed leafing through Eknath Easwaran's Classics of Indian Spirituality, a three-volume box set of the Upanishads, the Dhammpada and the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe some remember that this was an item that I put on my list of essential desert island books recently. As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them. (Nietzsche called them afterworldsmen). My current signature from the late, great American environmentalist Edward Abbey sums it up for me: to him and to me, to hold these ideas as true is an insult to the real, the true and the actual, right here and right now in the only mode of existence of which we can be entirely certain. I suppose I'm just one of those dullards to bound up in this life now to place any credence in concepts of anything and anywhere else. "Other world? There is no other world. Here or nowhere is the whole fact," as Ralph Waldo Emerson put it.

Again, it's easy for me to say. I'm in good health, well-fed, well-clothed. If I get sick I toddle off to the GP for a short course of antibiotics and if it gets chilly I put the central heating on. While things were relatively tight whilst growing up, I've never known real hunger, want or deprivation in my life. Or really desperate tragedy either, come to that. Plenty do. The standard answer to that, in my view, is that even if you're starving and do know truly horrible poverty, want and deprivation, while the desire for there to be a God to believe in is perfectly understandable from a psychological point of view, that state of affairs doesn't somehow suddenly make the existence of the personal, personalistic, interested god of theism any more likely actually to exist.

It seems to me that if you consider yourself to be (for example) a Christian, you have one foot in this world but, if not a foot, then at least a toe - even if it's a little toe - in another realm where a miracle-working god-man born of a virgin who rose from the dead two thousand years ago is still somehow alive, where the regularities of nature can be suspended at the whim of a deity and all the rest of it. Christians would quite rightly counter that they live in the "real" world and get married, raise kinds, push the trolley round Asda and take the car in for an MoT exactly the same as anybody else. All true enough. But I don't see how you can regard yourself as a Christian or any other kind of theist in any tolerably traditional sense and not have this whole other raft of beliefs about what constitutes relaity which find no support in science or, for me at any rate, in reason or logic. This - believing all this - is absolutely and utterly incomprehensible to me. Whether this intellectual and temperamental divide is basically genetic I have no idea; something has to explain it.

The Upanishads and the Gita (and other Indian mystical philosophies) are largely about Self development and about seeking higher levels of Consciousness. Its not about spiritual realms somewhere out there. Its not that other spiritual realms don't exist....but that they are accessed only through the inner mind.

For people who believe that the mind is a product of electrical and chemical processes in the brain all this will obviously seem meaningless.

About the predisposition of different people towards mystical and non-mystical experiences....yes...this is what I have written about many times as a 'faculty'....such as eye sight.  Many people have it some don't. Maybe it is genetic or epigenetic.

But speaking personally about you.....your vegetarianism and your interest in such mystical matters in spite of your predisposition against it, is an indication that you'll probably develop this faculty as you age...or at least in your next birth (never mind that you don't believe in it).  ;)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #663 on: June 08, 2015, 04:25:07 PM »
Pointing out the manifold miseries for which religion is still responsible is "bile"?

Bloody Nora. I knew you were pathologically hypersenstitive to even the mildest criticism of your religion, but if you're that bad I don't think the internet is the place for you.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #664 on: June 08, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »
In no way are they weak-minded, they are just over credulous and under sceptical, through no fault of their own.

Certainly no fault of their own.

Rhiannon's posts are always interesting and just a few days ago - certainly less than a week, I'm sure - she said something that I found especially thought-provoking to the effect that some people just seem to be born with a mystical bent, predisposed to find religious concepts not just plausible but believeable. If this is true, and I suspect it may very well be, the corollary of this is that some people are also born to be non-mystical, and I have to say that I would place myself in this group. The other night I was lying in bed leafing through Eknath Easwaran's Classics of Indian Spirituality, a three-volume box set of the Upanishads, the Dhammpada and the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe some remember that this was an item that I put on my list of essential desert island books recently. As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them. (Nietzsche called them afterworldsmen). My current signature from the late, great American environmentalist Edward Abbey sums it up for me: to him and to me, to hold these ideas as true is an insult to the real, the true and the actual, right here and right now in the only mode of existence of which we can be entirely certain. I suppose I'm just one of those dullards to bound up in this life now to place any credence in concepts of anything and anywhere else. "Other world? There is no other world. Here or nowhere is the whole fact," as Ralph Waldo Emerson put it.

Again, it's easy for me to say. I'm in good health, well-fed, well-clothed. If I get sick I toddle off to the GP for a short course of antibiotics and if it gets chilly I put the central heating on. While things were relatively tight whilst growing up, I've never known real hunger, want or deprivation in my life. Or really desperate tragedy either, come to that. Plenty do. The standard answer to that, in my view, is that even if you're starving and do know truly horrible poverty, want and deprivation, while the desire for there to be a God to believe in is perfectly understandable from a psychological point of view, that state of affairs doesn't somehow suddenly make the existence of the personal, personalistic, interested god of theism any more likely actually to exist.

It seems to me that if you consider yourself to be (for example) a Christian, you have one foot in this world but, if not a foot, then at least a toe - even if it's a little toe - in another realm where a miracle-working god-man born of a virgin who rose from the dead two thousand years ago is still somehow alive, where the regularities of nature can be suspended at the whim of a deity and all the rest of it. Christians would quite rightly counter that they live in the "real" world and get married, raise kinds, push the trolley round Asda and take the car in for an MoT exactly the same as anybody else. All true enough. But I don't see how you can regard yourself as a Christian or any other kind of theist in any tolerably traditional sense and not have this whole other raft of beliefs about what constitutes relaity which find no support in science or, for me at any rate, in reason or logic. This - believing all this - is absolutely and utterly incomprehensible to me. Whether this intellectual and temperamental divide is basically genetic I have no idea; something has to explain it.

If God is small enough to be understood, then He is too small to be worshipped.


"If we were to judge nature by common sense or likelihood, we wouldn't believe the world existed." --Annie Dillard
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #665 on: June 08, 2015, 04:36:11 PM »
If God is small enough to be understood, then He is too small to be worshipped.
As if worshipping anything isn't anathema to me already (with the signal exception of Rachel Riley), worshipping something that you can't even understand is madness.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #666 on: June 08, 2015, 04:43:36 PM »
If God is small enough to be understood, then He is too small to be worshipped.
As if worshipping anything isn't anathema to me already (with the signal exception of Rachel Riley), worshipping something that you can't even understand is madness.

Worshipping is a process of humbling oneself and disciplining the base impulses....thereby developing ones inner consciousness.  That is why it makes no difference which deity one worships...the process is the same.

'Understanding' the deity is irrelevant. 

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #667 on: June 08, 2015, 05:09:41 PM »
Worshipping is a process of humbling oneself and disciplining the base impulses
Oooooh no, don't go in for any of that lark  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #668 on: June 08, 2015, 05:15:42 PM »
Shaker
Quote
As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them.
What you are engaged in is an intellectual exercise which is a natural reaction to the writings associated with Eastern religious schools of thought and provided that you are not gullible there is no reason to believe what is written.  However, it is possible to suspend belief and disbelief and be open to the possibility that they are pointing to an inner 'state' beyond mental activity and are using myth to refer to it.  What such schools often do have is a variety of methods and techniques to help transcend the intellectual and emotional activities of the mind so that the outcome is first hand experiential rather than second hand intellectual.  Unfortunately those same methods, in the hands of the manipulative, can be used to exercise control over the unwary or suggestible, so constant vigilance is necessary.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #669 on: June 08, 2015, 05:26:05 PM »
No human or entity should be worshipped. Anyone or thing which requires worshipping is too up themselves!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #670 on: June 08, 2015, 05:29:50 PM »
Shaker
Quote
As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them.
What you are engaged in is an intellectual exercise which is a natural reaction to the writings associated with Eastern religious schools of thought and provided that you are not gullible there is no reason to believe what is written.  However, it is possible to suspend belief and disbelief and be open to the possibility that they are pointing to an inner 'state' beyond mental activity and are using myth to refer to it.  What such schools often do have is a variety of methods and techniques to help transcend the intellectual and emotional activities of the mind so that the outcome is first hand experiential rather than second hand intellectual.  Unfortunately those same methods, in the hands of the manipulative, can be used to exercise control over the unwary or suggestible, so constant vigilance is necessary.

I posted this answer to you just a while ago, when you last used that template.  For "worship," read love.  And to expect that is entirely acceptable.  I know you won't bother to answer, as you have clearly decided never to respond to my posts  -  a very mature approach!!
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #671 on: June 08, 2015, 05:38:12 PM »
Shaker
Quote
As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them.
What you are engaged in is an intellectual exercise which is a natural reaction to the writings associated with Eastern religious schools of thought and provided that you are not gullible there is no reason to believe what is written.  However, it is possible to suspend belief and disbelief and be open to the possibility that they are pointing to an inner 'state' beyond mental activity and are using myth to refer to it.  What such schools often do have is a variety of methods and techniques to help transcend the intellectual and emotional activities of the mind so that the outcome is first hand experiential rather than second hand intellectual.  Unfortunately those same methods, in the hands of the manipulative, can be used to exercise control over the unwary or suggestible, so constant vigilance is necessary.

I posted this answer to you just a while ago, when you last used that template.  For "worship," read love.  And to expect that is entirely acceptable.  I know you won't bother to answer, as you have clearly decided never to respond to my posts  -  a very mature approach!!
Is that a comment addressed to me?  If so, I have no idea what you are talking about.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #672 on: June 08, 2015, 05:41:21 PM »
Shaker
Quote
As interested as I am in Eastern ideas in a purely sort of academic way, as I was reading I was very conscious of the fact that I was experiencing not just an intellectual but very visceral, temperamental rejection of what was being said about other spiritual realms and whatnot. It's not just the case (though it is the case) that the purely rational and intellectual arguments against this kind of thing are as far as I'm concerned watertight; it's also a instinctive, almost automatic rejection of ideas of different (and, it's assumed or sometimes explicitly stated, better) realms of being and people who believe in them.
What you are engaged in is an intellectual exercise which is a natural reaction to the writings associated with Eastern religious schools of thought and provided that you are not gullible there is no reason to believe what is written.  However, it is possible to suspend belief and disbelief and be open to the possibility that they are pointing to an inner 'state' beyond mental activity and are using myth to refer to it.  What such schools often do have is a variety of methods and techniques to help transcend the intellectual and emotional activities of the mind so that the outcome is first hand experiential rather than second hand intellectual.  Unfortunately those same methods, in the hands of the manipulative, can be used to exercise control over the unwary or suggestible, so constant vigilance is necessary.

I posted this answer to you just a while ago, when you last used that template.  For "worship," read love.  And to expect that is entirely acceptable.  I know you won't bother to answer, as you have clearly decided never to respond to my posts  -  a very mature approach!!
Is that a comment addressed to me?  If so, I have no idea what you are talking about.

No, I was referring to Floo.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #673 on: June 08, 2015, 06:03:18 PM »
Dear All,

First off a big thank you for a very interesting thread, lots of points of view to mull over.

Dear Shaker,

Karen Armstrong, from what I have read in your posts on this thread she may just give you a different perspective.

I think I might propose a new kind of theist, a dark horse theist,  an atheist who is still searching ???

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #674 on: June 08, 2015, 06:03:55 PM »
Worshipping is a process of humbling oneself and disciplining the base impulses
Oooooh no, don't go in for any of that lark  ;)

That's far too Fifty Shades.