Searching for GOD...

[BashfulAnthony]

Even if some humans have a need for an entity out there somewhere, they sing from different hymn sheets when it comes to their idea of a deity, even ones of the same religion! They don't have the same religious reasoning, which one might expect if a deity actually existed.

That doesn't follow at all.

[Alan Burns]

Sorry, but I do not feel up to the task of summarising over 400 pages in a forum post.

No ... somehow I didn't think you would, Al

Here is another snippet that might interest you, as you seemed to admire her early books:
For many years  I myself wanted nothing whatsoever to do with religion, and some of  my first books definitely tended to the Dawkinsesque. But my study of  world religion during the last twenty years has compelled me to revise  my earlier opinions. Not only has it opened my mind to aspects of  religion as practised in other traditions that qualified the parochial and  dogmatic faith of my childhood, but a careful assessment of the  evidence has made me see Christianity differently. One of the things I  have learned is that quarrelling about religion is counterproductive and  not conducive to enlightenment. It not only makes authentic religious  experience impossible but it also violates the Socratic rationalist  tradition. 

[torridon]

Sorry, but I do not feel up to the task of summarising over 400 pages in a forum post.

No ... somehow I didn't think you would, Al

Here is a little taster from the introduction chapter:
Religion, therefore, was not primarily something that people  thought but something they did. Its truth was acquired by practical  action. It is no use imagining that you will be able to drive a car if you  simply read the manual or study the Highway Code. You cannot learn  to dance, paint or cook by perusing texts or recipes. The rules of a  board game sound obscure, unnecessarily complicated and dull until  you start to play, when everything falls into place. There are some  things that can only be learned by constant, dedicated practice, but if  you persevere you find that you achieve something that seemed  initially impossible. Instead of sinking to the bottom of the pool, you  can float. You may learn to jump higher and with more grace than seems humanly possible, or sing with unearthly beauty. You do not  always understand how you achieve these feats, because your mind  directs your body in a way that bypasses conscious, logical  deliberation. But somehow you learn to transcend your original  capabilities. Some of these activities bring indescribable joy. A  musician can lose herself in her music, a dancer becomes inseparable  from the dance, and a skier feels entirely at one with himself and the  external world as he speeds down the slope. It is a satisfaction that goes  deeper than merely ‘feeling good’. It is what the Greeks called ekstasis,  a ‘stepping outside’ the norm.  Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new  capacities of mind and heart. This will be one of the major themes of  this book. It is no use magisterially weighing up the teachings of  religion to judge their truth or falsehood, before embarking on a  religious way of life. You will only discover their truth — or lack of it —   if you translate these doctrines into ritual or ethical action. Like any  skill, religion requires perseverance, hard work and discipline. Some  people will be better at it than others, some appallingly inept, and  others will miss the point entirely. But those who do not apply  themselyes will get nowhere at all. Religious people find it hard to  explain how their rituals and practices work, just as a skater may not be  fully conscious of the physical laws that enable her to soar over the ice  on a thin blade.        
So to summarise just this bit - Don't knock it until you have tried it

Quite a lot to agree with there; I thought 'Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of mind and heart.' quite apt. Belief in God is something that people do, rather than something they believe. I see religious practice as methods of invoking an ancient shamanic state of mind, a legacy still present and fairly widespread in the minds of modern humans. However this is not ubiquitous, just as love of ice skating or skiing or rap music is not ubiquitous. Many of us prefer to keep a clear cool head rather than inducing a joyous state of shamanic delerium.

[Nearly Sane]

That first quote is a verbose Courtier' s response. Note if Alan thinks it is valid then his dismissal of other religions as untrue is not logically consistent with it and one or other would have to be dropped.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

As I have mentioned mentioned before atheists such as Dawkins run scared of debating the good lady simply because of her depth of knowledge.

One reason why I enjoy her books is that she seeks out similarities between religions, the golden rule being one of her main points, google charter for compassion to find out more.

If anyone is at all interested in theology her books are a must, a good book to start with in my modest opinion would be "Genesis A new Interpretation" a wonderful little booklet showing how flawed the Patriarchs in Genesis were, maybe not flawed but just human.

Gonnagle.

[ekim]

torridon's post

Quite a lot to agree with there; I thought 'Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of mind and heart.' quite apt.

Yes, I agree.

Belief in God is something that people do, rather than something they believe.

Aspiring to know a deity or heavenly state appears to require a method to practise, something initiators try to impart to initiates.  Somewhere along the line a kind of blind belief gets inserted into the religion.  In the case of Christianity, the Creed seems to be more about belief in a story rather than emphasis on practice.

I see religious practice as methods of invoking an ancient shamanic state of mind, a legacy still present and fairly widespread in the minds of modern humans. However this is not ubiquitous, just as love of ice skating or skiing or rap music is not ubiquitous. Many of us prefer to keep a clear cool head rather than inducing a joyous state of shamanic delerium.

Some practices might be like that but others indicate that a clear head and joyous state go together.

[Alan Burns]

Quite a lot to agree with there; I thought 'Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of mind and heart.' quite apt. Belief in God is something that people do, rather than something they believe. I see religious practice as methods of invoking an ancient shamanic state of mind, a legacy still present and fairly widespread in the minds of modern humans. However this is not ubiquitous, just as love of ice skating or skiing or rap music is not ubiquitous. Many of us prefer to keep a clear cool head rather than inducing a joyous state of shamanic delerium.

Some critics of this book complain that she stops short of actually defining what God is.  As she points out, God can't be fully described in words.  What she endeavours to do is to re kindle the spiritual aspects of our humanity which can lead us to discover the reality of God by doing rather than just thinking.  Our spiritual capabilities are sadly being neglected in the modern age, but they are an essential part of our humanity.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

A clear cool head!! I suspect that you, like me or any other human being on this planet would love for just one minute to have touched your fellowman like Our Lord has or Buddha, Confucius, Aristotle, Einstein, Plato, Mozart, Kipling.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan Burns,

Good post, in my opinion Armstrong is saying that trying to define God is futile, I think I am quite lucky in being a Christian, if asked to define God I simply point to the life and teachings of Our Lord.

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Dear Alan Burns,

Good post, in my opinion Armstrong is saying that trying to define God is futile, I think I am quite lucky in being a Christian, if asked to define God I simply point to the life and teachings of Our Lord.

Gonnagle.

If you can't define something how do you say that you believe in that something? Surely believers must have an idea of what they are believers in.

[torridon]

Aspiring to know a deity or heavenly state appears to require a method to practise, something initiators try to impart to initiates.  Somewhere along the line a kind of blind belief gets inserted into the religion.  In the case of Christianity, the Creed seems to be more about belief in a story rather than emphasis on practice.

Inevitable, I suppose.  It seems to me that it is spiritual practice that delivers rather than the truth of the associated beliefs; all such endeavour seeks to touch something numinous and mysterious, but to communicate that to others has to involve making the ineffable, effable, somehow.

[Leonard James]

Dear Alan Burns,

Good post, in my opinion Armstrong is saying that trying to define God is futile, I think I am quite lucky in being a Christian, if asked to define God I simply point to the life and teachings of Our Lord.

Gonnagle.

If you can't define something how do you say that you believe in that something? Surely believers must have an idea of what they are believers in.

'God' is just another way of saying 'the way to live'. It doesn't mean a deity, it means a way of life.

[torridon]

Quite a lot to agree with there; I thought 'Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of mind and heart.' quite apt. Belief in God is something that people do, rather than something they believe. I see religious practice as methods of invoking an ancient shamanic state of mind, a legacy still present and fairly widespread in the minds of modern humans. However this is not ubiquitous, just as love of ice skating or skiing or rap music is not ubiquitous. Many of us prefer to keep a clear cool head rather than inducing a joyous state of shamanic delerium.

Some critics of this book complain that she stops short of actually defining what God is.  As she points out, God can't be fully described in words.  What she endeavours to do is to re kindle the spiritual aspects of our humanity which can lead us to discover the reality of God by doing rather than just thinking.  Our spiritual capabilities are sadly being neglected in the modern age, but they are an essential part of our humanity.

I can understand the sentiment that God could not be described in words. This is also the reasoning why some religions frown upon depictions of God - any image would be less than the reality and in practice the image becomes a substitute for worship - an icon, an idol, something cheap.

Doing rather than thinking, yes, you're on the right track methinks, it is the practice of a religion that delivers joy to the believer, not the empirical truth of the underlying beliefs. Your vehicle might be the RC variety of the Christian faith, but other faiths deliver a broadly similar range of experience suggesting that is practice that is effective, not the correctness of the beliefs, something to borne in mind by all would be one-true-way-ists

[Alien]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

A great recommendation for those who love nothing better than abasement and have no higher ambition in life than to be a serf.

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

[Sriram]

Quite a lot to agree with there; I thought 'Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of mind and heart.' quite apt. Belief in God is something that people do, rather than something they believe. I see religious practice as methods of invoking an ancient shamanic state of mind, a legacy still present and fairly widespread in the minds of modern humans. However this is not ubiquitous, just as love of ice skating or skiing or rap music is not ubiquitous. Many of us prefer to keep a clear cool head rather than inducing a joyous state of shamanic delerium.

Some critics of this book complain that she stops short of actually defining what God is.  As she points out, God can't be fully described in words.  What she endeavours to do is to re kindle the spiritual aspects of our humanity which can lead us to discover the reality of God by doing rather than just thinking.  Our spiritual capabilities are sadly being neglected in the modern age, but they are an essential part of our humanity.

I can understand the sentiment that God could not be described in words. This is also the reasoning why some religions frown upon depictions of God - any image would be less than the reality and in practice the image becomes a substitute for worship - an icon, an idol, something cheap.

Doing rather than thinking, yes, you're on the right track methinks, it is the practice of a religion that delivers joy to the believer, not the empirical truth of the underlying beliefs. Your vehicle might be the RC variety of the Christian faith, but other faiths deliver a broadly similar range of experience suggesting that is practice that is effective, not the correctness of the beliefs, something to borne in mind by all would be one-true-way-ists

Yes...you're beginning to get the point.  All religions contain practices, legends and beliefs that make inner growth possible. 

Joy is something we experience every time we grow one step forward.  It is a dynamic thing. The same state of mind does not provide joy forever.  Its always about moving forward into higher levels. Joy is both the motivation and the indicator of forward movement.

There is no such thing as a 'correct' belief. A belief is only a path one chooses. All paths lead to the same goal eventually.







 

[Leonard James]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.
[/quote]

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

[Alan Burns]

I can understand the sentiment that God could not be described in words.

So if the true nature of God is beyond human understanding, does it not make sense that God makes Himself known to us by becoming one of us?

[wigginhall]

I can understand the sentiment that God could not be described in words.

So if the true nature of God is beyond human understanding, does it not make sense that God makes Himself known to us by becoming one of us?

Not particularly.  What does 'make sense' mean?  So God is incomprehensible, but also makes sense?

[Alan Burns]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

 

Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

In a nutshell old friend, Second Greatest Commandment, Armstrong has a lot to say on the Golden Rule.

Something that I notice in the New Testament when Jesus is asked what is the Greatest Commandment, the word "like" the second is like the first.

Gonnagle.

[Alien]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Lamentations?

Why not my praise God and love my neighbour?

[Leonard James]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Lamentations?

Why not my praise God and love my neighbour?

Because I don't feel that a source of great love would really want the knee bending and the praise.

[Leonard James]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

 

Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

In a nutshell old friend, Second Greatest Commandment, Armstrong has a lot to say on the Golden Rule.

Something that I notice in the New Testament when Jesus is asked what is the Greatest Commandment, the word "like" the second is like the first.

Gonnagle.

I think Jesus was wise enough to know that people would love one another more often if they believed it was what "God" wanted them to do.

[Sriram]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.