Searching for GOD...

[ekim]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

From Leonard's perspective it would be presumptuous to dictate that there is a God let alone the nature of its will.  If you have personal experience of 'loving God' and in return 'feeling the wonder of God's love', to help others understand what you mean, wouldn't it be better to indicate how you know that there is a God involved and that it is the same as the God of Jesus or Moses?  From an outsider's point of view, you could be drawing that conclusion because you have been conditioned to believe so and it fulfils your expectations.

[Shaker]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

A great recommendation for those who love nothing better than abasement and have no higher ambition in life than to be a serf.

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

Which I have absolutely no reason whatever to believe is the case.

But that doesn't address the point I was making, which is that for those who inexplicably think that such a thing does exist, it seems to provide the maximum of arrogance with the maximum of fawning, cringing servility.

[floo]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Lamentations?

Why not my praise God and love my neighbour?

Praising the evil deity would be like praising Hitler!

[Alan Burns]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.

Well said.

[BashfulAnthony]

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

If he did, do you really think he would be happy about your praise and your lamentations? Don't you think he simply wants you to love your neighbour?

Lamentations?

Why not my praise God and love my neighbour?

Praising the evil deity would be like praising Hitler!

Nurse!  She's out again!       

[Shaker]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.

Well said.

Learning a bit of basic astronomy and cosmology would achieve the same objective, only better and without the twaddle.

[Nearly Sane]

This is the ego on the one side that regards itself as having absolute knowledge of a supreme being that loves it and created a universe for it that when that was screwed up sacrificed itself and will live after death in some eternal paradise as opposed to the one that goes we appear, we die, err that's it -and it is the first one that is being kept in check!

[Sriram]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.

Well said.

Learning a bit of basic astronomy and cosmology would achieve the same objective, only better and without the twaddle.

On the contrary....while it could inspire awe sometimes...it generally inflates our ego about our intellect, capabilities and knowledge. We begin to assume that we are in control in some way.  That is always a problem.   

[Alien]

...and we can become better people by humbly admitting to the limits of our knowledge.

I will happpily admit there are many limits to my knowledge, but I won't do it 'humbly'!! :J)
 
In any case, before whom should we humble ourselves?

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

(Ps 95:6)

A great recommendation for those who love nothing better than abasement and have no higher ambition in life than to be a serf.

Unless the Lord our God does exist.

Which I have absolutely no reason whatever to believe is the case.

But that doesn't address the point I was making, which is that for those who inexplicably think that such a thing does exist,

Inexplicable to whom? In what way?

it seems to provide the maximum of arrogance with the maximum of fawning, cringing servility.

Seems to whom? You? If so, so what?

[Shaker]

On the contrary....while it could inspire awe sometimes...it generally inflates our ego about our intellect, capabilities and knowledge. We begin to assume that we are in control in some way.  That is always a problem.

It's clear that you know absolutely nothing of which you speak.

[Shaker]

Inexplicable to whom?

To me.

In what way?

As to why so many people who are otherwise intelligent take it even remotely seriously.

Seems to whom?

To me and to a great many others critical of theism.

You?

Yes.

If so, so what?

That could be said not only of any but every opinion ever voiced anywhere, ever, including here by anyone, including you. Voicing opinions is what we do here, if you hadn't noticed.

[Alan Burns]

Learning a bit of basic astronomy and cosmology would achieve the same objective, only better and without the twaddle.

Knowledge of the universe and its vastness would not in itself make me humble, but without knowing God I am sure it would make me feel very trivial - just an accidental blip in the vast scale of time and space.

[Shaker]

Knowledge of the universe and its vastness would not in itself make me humble, but without knowing God I am sure it would make me feel very trivial - just an accidental blip in the vast scale of time and space.

Which is what we all are, Al, however much you may seek to deny it with the self-aggrandising narratives of theism.

[Shaker]

I find it fascinating that within the space of a few minutes two entirely different posters have responded to the same point with diametrically opposing views - for Sriram, knowing something of our actual place in the universe based on scientific endeavour is something that "... generally inflates our ego about our intellect, capabilities and knowledge. We begin to assume that we are in control in some way," whereas it makes Alan "... feel very trivial - just an accidental blip in the vast scale of time and space."

A rich field for psychology, this one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Knowledge of the universe and its vastness would not in itself make me humble, but without knowing God I am sure it would make me feel very trivial - just an accidental blip in the vast scale of time and space.

Which is what we all are, Al, however much you may seek to deny it with the self-aggrandising narratives of theism.

But hang on Shakes we can study cosmology and have a spiritual life but no doubt to return yourself to your happy place (intellectual totalitarianism) we would only have to study cosmology.

A philosophical materialist demanding that everyone be ''Cosmos enthused'' has absolutely nothing in their argument armoury to deal with someone who says ''well actually, it's not that great.

In terms of self aggrandisement it is moral self aggrandisement the atheistic moral non realist stands accused of.

[Shaker]

But hang on Shakes we can study cosmology and have a spiritual life

A great many people would say that that is a spiritual life.

but no doubt to return yourself to your happy place (intellectual totalitarianism) we would only have to study cosmology.

A philosophical materialist demanding that everyone be ''Cosmos enthused'' has absolutely nothing in their argument armoury to deal with someone who says ''well actually, it's not that great.

In terms of self aggrandisement it is moral self aggrandisement the atheistic moral non realist stands accused of.

You forgot Stalinist, Vlad. Absolutely no idea what that means in context either any more than the rest of it, but you may as well chuck it into this particular strange brew.

[Nearly Sane]

I find it fascinating that within the space of a few minutes two entirely different posters have responded to the same point with diametrically opposing views - for Sriram, knowing something of our actual place in the universe based on scientific endeavour is something that "... generally inflates our ego about our intellect, capabilities and knowledge. We begin to assume that we are in control in some way," whereas it makes Alan "... feel very trivial - just an accidental blip in the vast scale of time and space."

A rich field for psychology, this one.

Not just any two posters but two who were agreeing previously that we need to knee bend to a 'God' to keep our ego in check

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But hang on Shakes we can study cosmology and have a spiritual life

A great many people would say that that is a spiritual life.

but no doubt to return yourself to your happy place (intellectual totalitarianism) we would only have to study cosmology.

A philosophical materialist demanding that everyone be ''Cosmos enthused'' has absolutely nothing in their argument armoury to deal with someone who says ''well actually, it's not that great.

In terms of self aggrandisement it is moral self aggrandisement the atheistic moral non realist stands accused of.

Absolutely no idea what that means.

I've long suspected it.

[Shaker]

Nice quote mine there. BHP Billiton* will be head-hunting you before the week is out.

* (World's largest mining company).

[Nearly Sane]

Nice quote mine there. BHP Billiton* will be head-hunting you before the week is out.

* (World's largest mining company).

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10222.msg516936#msg516936

[Leonard James]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.

My dear friend, it's an enormous ego that thinks some supernatural entity has chosen him for eternal life, providing he succumbs to its wishes and kowtows to it.

I would never be so presumptive.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is it not very presumtuous for us to try to dictate what God wants us to do?

So you think he really wants the knee bending and the praise?

I am happy to accept the words of Jesus which call upon us to love God with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.  From personal experience, loving God is very much a two way thing, because in doing so you get to feel the wonder of God's love for us, which gives us even more inspiration to share this love with our neighbours.

Yes, love and kindness do seem to engender a reciprocal action.

He doesn't need the praise or knee bending....but its good for us. Keeps our ego in its place. That's the point.

My dear friend, it's an enormous ego that thinks some supernatural entity has chosen him for eternal life,

But not as enormous as the ego that thinks it can turn down the offer.

[Shaker]

Why not?

An offer, actually to be an offer, entails that the recipient of the offer is able to say no as well as yes. If the possibility of saying no isn't in play it's a demand, a command or an order; what by definition it isn't and can't be is an offer.

Len was, as usual, right and you, as usual, were wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

Why not?

An offer, actually to be an offer, entails that the recipient of the offer is able to say no as well as yes. If the possibility of saying no isn't in play it's a demand, a command or an order; what by definition it isn't and can't be is an offer.

Len was, as usual, right and you, as usual, were wrong.

And you have to believe that there is actually an offer.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why not?

An offer, actually to be an offer, entails that the recipient of the offer is able to say no as well as yes. If the possibility of saying no isn't in play it's a demand, a command or an order; what by definition it isn't and can't be is an offer.

Len was, as usual, right and you, as usual, were wrong.

I was talking about the reason the offer is made. To turn down the reason and the offer is a mark of a massive ego.

Len is usually right? yeah.