Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think that Gonzo has the solution to the world's problems, then neither do I think that any of us on here do. The point is that unless you start providing figured about what people think about how we approach the various issues, and actually illustrating even a notional link, given that correlation does not mean causation, then singling out some idea of monotheism is mere finger pointing.


After all, there's old BA thinking that it is more the religious people who do this. In terms of the numbers, as noted before, I don't really care and I see it as a form of oneuppersonship.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

I think you are wrong about where Rhiannon is coming from.

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for the first paragraph of your post, in my blindness to sound all worldly wise and wind swept I would join others in condemning Bishops in the house of lords, I was then educated as to how much work the CoE does in this country, I am now having a rethink.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, ippy, as Gonzo says, none of what Rhiannon has been saying backs up your interpretation, I suggest you reread the thread.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

I think you are wrong about where Rhiannon is coming from.

Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for the first paragraph of your post, in my blindness to sound all worldly wise and wind swept I would join others in condemning Bishops in the house of lords, I was then educated as to how much work the CoE does in this country, I am now having a rethink.

Gonnagle.

Suggesting!

ippy

[torridon]

And green spirituality (and politics) will have to tackle climate change, which has set the cat among the pigeons.  Some people want to deny it, as it requires curbs on some traditional forms of growth.  I think it was hardly mentioned in the election.

I thought the recent election a worrying indicator to the way things will go in the future. We have boatloads of the poor and desperate chancing a voyage over the sea and in response we see a surge in popularity for wall-building, for tougher penalties, for curbs on immigration.  A 2 degree rise in global temperature and a human population of 9 billion people mostly in parts of the world already dirt poor means that the current immigration issue is tiny compared to the one that will face our grandchildren's generation.  Electorates in the world's rich nations will become increasingly hostile to immigrants but the sheer numbers will lead to border forces being totally overwhelmed by the tide of the poor and impoverished.  And what compassion will there be left in our hearts then, for the pandas and the lions and the rain forests ?

[ippy]

Yep, ippy, as Gonzo says, none of what Rhiannon has been saying backs up your interpretation, I suggest you reread the thread.

Key word "Suggesting", what else is the sentence I included within my post saying?

ippy

[wigginhall]

And green spirituality (and politics) will have to tackle climate change, which has set the cat among the pigeons.  Some people want to deny it, as it requires curbs on some traditional forms of growth.  I think it was hardly mentioned in the election.

I thought the recent election a worrying indicator to the way things will go in the future. We have boatloads of the poor and desperate chancing a voyage over the sea and in response we see a surge in popularity for wall-building, for tougher penalties, for curbs on immigration.  A 2 degree rise in global temperature and a human population of 9 billion people mostly in parts of the world already dirt poor means that the current immigration issue is tiny compared to the one that will face our grandchildren's generation.  Electorates in the world's rich nations will become increasingly hostile to immigrants but the sheer numbers will lead to border forces being totally overwhelmed by the tide of the poor and impoverished.  And what compassion will there be left in our hearts then, for the pandas and the lions and the rain forests ?

I must admit to a certain amusement, that the Western powers in their heyday ransacked and pillaged the world, and even claimed parts of it as their own.  If karma exists, here it is, folks.

But that's enough Schadenfreude for one day.  It's hard to think of solutions, although we may crack the problem of green energy.  The EU shows the contradictions beautifully, since a free market, ra ra ra, requires free movement of people, hang on, we don't like that bit.

[Shaker]

But that's enough Schadenfreude for one day.  It's hard to think of solutions ...

I disagree, wigster; the solutions are known and are, in principle within our grasp, there and ready for the taking. That's not the hard bit; the really hard bit is getting human beings individually and humanity collectively to put them into practice.

[Nearly Sane]

But if they can't be put in place, then they are not really solutions.

[Shaker]

No; that's like saying if you won't take medicine because it tastes horrible, the medicine doesn't exist.

[wigginhall]

But that's enough Schadenfreude for one day.  It's hard to think of solutions ...

I disagree, wigster; the solutions are known and are, in principle within our grasp, there and ready for the taking. That's not the hard bit; the really hard bit is getting human beings individually and humanity collectively to put them into practice.

Well, yeah, we could feed and clothe everybody in the world, but some very powerful  people are going to object, what do they call them, the 1%?

[Leonard James]

Well, yeah, we could feed and clothe everybody in the world, but some very powerful  people are going to object, what do they call them, the 1%?

Self-centred pigs?

[Shaker]

That's the heartbreaking point, though, isn't it? We know what to do. This isn't magic; we're not talking about contravening the laws of physics here; solutions to so many problems are in existence.

The trouble is that there seems to be no ready solution to the basic and fundamental problem which underpins so many others; how to get the broad mass of people to set aside their greed and self-interest in the service of the greater good. That's the problem that needs solving. Crack that and so many of the others will fall of their own accord.

[Leonard James]

That's the heartbreaking point, though, isn't it? We know what to do. This isn't magic; we're not talking about contravening the laws of physics here; solutions to so many problems are in existence.

The trouble is that there seems to be no ready solution to the basic and fundamental problem which underpins so many others; how to get the broad mass of people to set aside their greed and self-interest in the service of the greater good. That's the problem that needs solving. Crack that and so many of the others will fall of their own accord.

I fear we will have to wait for a superior species to evolve. Homo sapiens just isn't capable.

But we must keep trying until it does.

[Nearly Sane]

There is no superiority in evolution, LJ, that's back at the exceptional. There I s just stuff that fits.

As for the solutions, the problem is that in order to implement this sort of stuff it takes people to want to do it AND a clear sensible way of doing it. The solutions to me seem primarily of the we shouldn't be doing x, we should be doing y with no real path of how you get that change to happen in any way. Now in part that is caused by the first problem that not enough people want to do it, but there is also a problem that this sort of control is not something ever properly achieved

[wigginhall]

I was thinking about the Soviet experiment, and among a number of things wrong with it, were the abject poverty existing, and the semi-feudal conditions, but also, when people got fed up with it (inevitably), the only solution they had was force.   I suppose the French revolution hit the same issue, and found a similar solution. 

Would it be any different in a wealthy country - I doubt it.   In crude terms, the rich want to keep their wealth and privileges, and the aspirational, well, aspire, and the poor endure cuts.

[Nearly Sane]

We have the old joke here

Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism, it's the other way around.

[wigginhall]

4 legs good, 2 legs better.

[Nearly Sane]

In one sense I think the thread has gone a bit off topic but somehow it still seems relevant to the idea of searching for a God _ we seem to be able to clearly observe our failings and argue for ways to get better, even giving those ways and rituals and beliefs, the title of God. And yet those ways become everything and nothing, both sclerotic constraints, and free justification for all sorts of contradictory approaches.

I don't see that when we remove the title God, though, that we seem to change, neither state seems to be either better at achieving balance or better at finding solutions. It does not seem to matter if we increase or decrease freedom/ we always return somehow to the tragedy of the commons.

We are beings of rationality driven by irrational desires, if a God wanted to create destruction that seems like a perfect combination.

[Nearly Sane]

I never understand why the parents seem upset when I run those thoughts by their kids while making the balloon animals 'look, Timmy, this is a giraffe and they will all be extinct because you will throw away the balloons carelessly like the the lizard brain driven little consuming machine you are, and the giraffes will choke on those balloons because if their enormously stupid 'design'. Whose for ice cream and the death of rainforests?'

(With nod to Bill Hicks and Beelzebozo)

[Leonard James]

There is no superiority in evolution, LJ, that's back at the exceptional. There I s just stuff that fits.

Yes, I'm sorry, I should have said a species with the intelligence to see the solution AND the ability to put it into action.

Unfortunately for us and the planet, homo sapiens has all but halted the evolutionary process in its efforts to stay alive.

As for the solutions, the problem is that in order to implement this sort of stuff it takes people to want to do it AND a clear sensible way of doing it. The solutions to me seem primarily of the we shouldn't be doing x, we should be doing y with no real path of how you get that change to happen in any way. Now in part that is caused by the first problem that not enough people want to do it, but there is also a problem that this sort of control is not something ever properly achieved

That is precisely what I meant, the evolution of a human species with both the ability to see the problem and the power to put it into effect.

[wigginhall]

One interesting thing about Marxism is that it seems to mimic Western religion, looking forward to a new world, when the old conflicts will be overcome, and we will 'storm the gates of heaven'.  But both have failed, and we are left in the ruins, but then for some people the ruins come with leveraged finance, and a promise to build executive housing at a handsome profit, just keep the wogs out, and tax the poor, what could possibly go wrong?

[torridon]

I fear we will have to wait for a superior species to evolve. Homo sapiens just isn't capable.

But we must keep trying until it does.

I don't think we can wait for natural selection to recode our DNA, we'd be looking at hundreds of thousand of years for fundamental change in human nature. Is Man's greed a pathological disorder encoded in our genome, or is this just pejorative language that hides a deeper insight ? Maybe our forebears did wipe out all the megafauna across all continents bar Antarctica, but perhaps they would just doing what they needed to in order to survive.  Maybe Homo Sapiens did eliminate all the other hominids, but maybe that is not so much because we are more warlike, but more because we were more successful. My guess is that if antelopes or ant-eaters got tooled up with technology like us, they too would trash the planet, it would be a natural consequence of runaway success. At least we have the capacity to understand our own problems, therein lies hope, and you are doing to your bit in terms of raising the collective consciousness of the true nature of man and his relationships with other life.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

I am right with you on thinking that we can make a difference, if I can shut the F*** up about religion, if you can  stop bleating on about how deluded we are, or words to that effect and work together then yes we can make a difference.

And on that note, I should shut up and do something about it.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

At least we have the capacity to understand our own problems, therein lies hope ...

Amen!