Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

So when you say seek and you will find, you then qualify it so that it is unfalsifiable.

Timing is not important.  The most important thing in anyone's life is to discover God's love, and accept Jesus as their saviour before they die.

So say for the sake of argument only , Rhiannon (and apologies to Rhiannon for using her in the hypothetical) were to die suddenly without any sign of her accepting Jesus, would you be saying that she did?

[floo]

Given all this support the papist God gives to his followers the RC Church must be a beacon of good and righteousness, oh wait, it isn't, hmmm.

 

[Shaker]

I can assure you that people who discover the truth of God's love are not sad, indeed their disposition is quite the opposite.

Except that that wasn't the sense of the word 'sad' I meant. I was referring to the rather more contemporary vernacular sense of 'sad' as 'risible; contemptible; pathetic.'

Let's see what you asserted (well I never ...) once more, to wit: "The most important thing in anyone's life is to discover God's love, and accept Jesus as their saviour before they die."

The most important thing. Not an important thing but the most important thing.

Absolutely not a word here about the indescribable joys, the highs, of loving and being loved by another, of sharing your life and all in it with another person with whom you can be entirely yourself and they with you.

Not a word about the equally indescribable magic of having and raising children, seeing new human life that you've created grow and develop under your guidance.

Nothing about the comfort and the security in life to be had in deep, enduring and convivial friendships, nurtured in good times and proved in the bad.

Not a word about good food, good drink, good times.

Nothing about finding your passion(s) in life, pursuing activities and interests and tastes and inclinations that you love, whether it's books or bowls or budgies, whatever it may be that animates and absorbs.

Just the same dreary wibble about a long-dead Jewish handyman.

What an abject confession of a failed life to see that as the summum bonum of existence.

Ghastly.

[wigginhall]

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”    Romans, 3: 10-12

Just read on a bit further:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

OK, but there still seems to be a contradiction here.  On the one hand, parts of the Bible state that we cannot by our own will seek God, and then there is the idea of grace, which redeems this, but of course, this grace is itself not earned, and cannot be arrived at by our own efforts.   But you seem to be saying that it can, or at least, you seem to be saying, don't give up, keep trying.   What does it mean to try if my will is corrupted?   See Luther: 'free will cannot will good, and of necessity serves sin'.   But I guess you disagree with Luther.

[torridon]

So when you say seek and you will find, you then qualify it so that it is unfalsifiable.

Timing is not important.  The most important thing in anyone's life is to discover God's love, and accept Jesus as their saviour before they die.

More important than that would be that Jesus accept them after they die.  In your theology; this life is neither here nor there.

[Alan Burns]

So say for the sake of argument only , Rhiannon (and apologies to Rhiannon for using her in the hypothetical) were to die suddenly without any sign of her accepting Jesus, would you be saying that she did?

God is the only person who would know if she accepted Jesus or not before she died.

[Alan Burns]

Just the same dreary wibble about a long-dead Jewish handyman.

What an abject confession of a failed life to see that as the summum bonum of existence.

Ghastly.

But when you discover God, you will become aware that all these joys in life that you listed are part of God's gift of life.  I can truly thank God for all the joys in my life because He is the source of my life.  Without Him I would not exist, and neither would anyone else.

[Shaker]

But when you discover God, you will become aware that all these joys in life that you listed are part of God's gift of life.

As far as I can see life exists without the input of any gods, a hypothesis of which I have no need.

I can truly thank God for all the joys in my life because He is the source of my life. Without Him I would not exist, and neither would anyone else.

Assertion, assertion, assertion.

To you debate is just something for other people, isn't it Alan?

[Alan Burns]

OK, but there still seems to be a contradiction here.  On the one hand, parts of the Bible state that we cannot by our own will seek God, and then there is the idea of grace, which redeems this, but of course, this grace is itself not earned, and cannot be arrived at by our own efforts.   But you seem to be saying that it can, or at least, you seem to be saying, don't give up, keep trying.   What does it mean to try if my will is corrupted?   See Luther: 'free will cannot will good, and of necessity serves sin'.   But I guess you disagree with Luther.

Free will is certainly the source of sin, but it is also the key to accepting God's saving grace by using it to nurture whatever scrap of faith which exists in each one of us.

[Nearly Sane]

So say for the sake of argument only , Rhiannon (and apologies to Rhiannon for using her in the hypothetical) were to die suddenly without any sign of her accepting Jesus, would you be saying that she did?

God is the only person who would know if she accepted Jesus or not before she died.

So when you see Seek and you will find you don't actually mean it.

[Shaker]

Free will

I didn't know it had been established that such a thing even exists - I must have missed that memo.

[Alan Burns]

More important than that would be that Jesus accept them after they die.  In your theology; this life is neither here nor there.

This life has a purpose, which was revealed to us in the Gospels.  Jesus lived, suffered and died that we might be saved from sin and death by accepting Him as our saviour.

[Nearly Sane]

Free will

I didn't know it had been established that such a thing even exists - I must have missed that memo.

I predict we will now see 'incredulity'

[Shaker]

This life has a purpose, which was revealed to us in the Gospels.  Jesus lived, suffered and died that we might be saved from sin and death by accepting Him as our saviour.

... the obvious conclusion of which, taken on its face, is that not only atheists and agnostics but Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, pagans - in fact anybody who holds any beliefs other than Christian ones - have no purpose in life.

Well done Alan. Very occasionally, just for a moment or two, I temporraily forget why I hold theism generally and Christianity especially in such utter contempt and why I have such withering scorn and disdain for it; thank you for reminding me.

[Nearly Sane]

More important than that would be that Jesus accept them after they die.  In your theology; this life is neither here nor there.

This life has a purpose, which was revealed to us in the Gospels.  Jesus lived, suffered and died that we might be saved from sin and death by accepting Him as our saviour.

The whole 'died' for us schtick makes no sense. It is just bizarre, the Greek myths make way more sense, even the stuff about Zeus as a shower of rain is logical by comparison 

[Alan Burns]

So when you see Seek and you will find you don't actually mean it.

Those were God's words as spoken by Jesus, and He does mean it.
God will answer the call of those who genuinely seek Him and want Him to come into their lives.

[Shaker]

The whole 'died' for us schtick makes no sense.

Even within the framework of the storybook it's false - dying and staying dead is not the same as dying temporarily and coming back to life within a matter of hours (with the foreknowledge of being able to do so at that).

It is just bizarre, the Greek myths make way more sense, even the stuff about Zeus as a shower of rain is logical by comparison

Quite.

[Nearly Sane]

So when you see Seek and you will find you don't actually mean it.

Those were God's words as spoken by Jesus, and He does mean it.
God will answer the call of those who genuinely seek Him and want Him to come into their lives.

Then Rhiannon was either not genuine or she cannot due while an atheist. So if she were to die, the logic of your position is that you must either say she wasn't genuine or that she somehow converts at the last second.

[wigginhall]

OK, but there still seems to be a contradiction here.  On the one hand, parts of the Bible state that we cannot by our own will seek God, and then there is the idea of grace, which redeems this, but of course, this grace is itself not earned, and cannot be arrived at by our own efforts.   But you seem to be saying that it can, or at least, you seem to be saying, don't give up, keep trying.   What does it mean to try if my will is corrupted?   See Luther: 'free will cannot will good, and of necessity serves sin'.   But I guess you disagree with Luther.

Free will is certainly the source of sin, but it is also the key to accepting God's saving grace by using it to nurture whatever scrap of faith which exists in each one of us.

You remind me of Tommy Cooper.   You are stuck in this whopping contradiction - we cannot do anything to earn grace, but none the less, we can - then you come up for air, declaring 'just like that', as Tommy used to, when failing to pull a rabbit out of a hat.     

[torridon]

So when you see Seek and you will find you don't actually mean it.

Those were God's words as spoken by Jesus, and He does mean it.
God will answer the call of those who genuinely seek Him and want Him to come into their lives.

You've already admitted that God's timing is not what we would expect.  Maybe that's why some people die before God gets around to responding.

[Shaker]

You remind me of Tommy Cooper.   You are stuck in this whopping contradiction - we cannot do anything to earn grace, but none the less, we can - then you come up for air, declaring 'just like that', as Tommy used to, when failing to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

Difference: the late, great Mr Cooper knew he was a clown.

[ippy]

So when you see Seek and you will find you don't actually mean it.

Those were God's words as spoken by Jesus, and He does mean it.
God will answer the call of those who genuinely seek Him and want Him to come into their lives.

The obvious question Alan how do you know, how can you possibly know, the answer is there is no way you can know this so all of your post is preposterous nonsense, as are almost every one of your posts, as crackers as Twit and Sass's post are.

Trouble is in your case I can't see you managing to get over this mania you appear to be suffering from.

ippy   

[floo]

You remind me of Tommy Cooper.   You are stuck in this whopping contradiction - we cannot do anything to earn grace, but none the less, we can - then you come up for air, declaring 'just like that', as Tommy used to, when failing to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

Difference: the late, great Mr Cooper knew he was a clown.

I never found him funny, but then I don't like slapstick or clowns!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

Cooper, slapstick!! Clown!!

This thread was flying so high, was it me, did I kill it, oh no!! I killed the thread

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

The obvious question Alan how do you know, how can you possibly know, the answer is there is no way you can know this so all of your post is preposterous nonsense, as are almost every one of your posts, as crackers as Twit and Sass's post are.

Trouble is in your case I can't see you managing to get over this mania you appear to be suffering from.

ippy

This mania, as you call it, is faith - God's greatest gift.