Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

That doesn't even rebut let alone refute what I've already said. Given the sort of timescales that we're talking about, the sincere belief that you possess free will in no way demonstrates that you actually do.

P.S. Your particular arrangement of genetic material is what makes you human.

My God given soul makes me human.  It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.  Yes you can label this as assertion, but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

[Shaker]

My God given soul makes me human.

I'd need to see some evidence of that before I give it head-room as a serious argument.

It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.

Ditto.

Yes you can label this as assertion

There's a reason for that ...

but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

No sign of it yet.

[BashfulAnthony]

That doesn't even rebut let alone refute what I've already said. Given the sort of timescales that we're talking about, the sincere belief that you possess free will in no way demonstrates that you actually do.

P.S. Your particular arrangement of genetic material is what makes you human.

My God given soul makes me human.  It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.  Yes you can label this as assertion, but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

Yet another childish post!!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That doesn't even rebut let alone refute what I've already said. Given the sort of timescales that we're talking about, the sincere belief that you possess free will in no way demonstrates that you actually do.

P.S. Your particular arrangement of genetic material is what makes you human.

My God given soul makes me human.  It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.  Yes you can label this as assertion, but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

Floo demonstrating that Shaker is, indeed.................The Leader of the Pack.............vroom,vroom Leader of the pack,now he's goh hon.vroom,vroom Leader of the pack,now he's goh hon.vroom,vroom Leader of the pack,now he's goh hon.

[Alan Burns]

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

We can all play the game of saying "If I were God I would do things differently" but things are as they are, and God has made Himself known to us in the form of Jesus, and He has given us the freedom of choice to follow Him or not.  This is the reality and we are in no position to change it, however much we would like to.

[floo]

That doesn't even rebut let alone refute what I've already said. Given the sort of timescales that we're talking about, the sincere belief that you possess free will in no way demonstrates that you actually do.

P.S. Your particular arrangement of genetic material is what makes you human.

My God given soul makes me human.  It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.  Yes you can label this as assertion, but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

Yet another childish post!!

 

As far as childish posts go you take the prize!

[BashfulAnthony]

That doesn't even rebut let alone refute what I've already said. Given the sort of timescales that we're talking about, the sincere belief that you possess free will in no way demonstrates that you actually do.

P.S. Your particular arrangement of genetic material is what makes you human.

My God given soul makes me human.  It gives me perception of my brain activity and enables me to acts of free will.  Yes you can label this as assertion, but I am certain that you will eventually discover that it is an assertion of the truth.

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

Yet another childish post!!

 

As far as childish posts go you take the prize!

Prizes are always welcome; whatever the source.   

[Shaker]

In that case have a pat on the head. I just need to go and find a cow first ...

[BashfulAnthony]

In that case have a pat on the head. I just need to go and find a cow first ...

You need not be quite so unkind about Floo:  she seems to like you, poor thing.

[ippy]

Perhaps you have not yet recognised God's answer to your prayers, which often come through other people.

Can you suggest a methodology by which you can tell the difference between:

(1) The existence of God and that God working through other people

and

(2) No God and people just doing people stuff.

Because without that, it's worthless, Al. Sorry and all that, but as a hypothesis it's junk.

There is no methodolgy I can quote, but I can look back on my life and see amazing answers to prayer which have come through other people.  You just know when it happens.  Of course it will be much more difficult to discern how God works in your life if you have lost faith.  I am certain God brought me into contact with this web forum to give witness to Him, and I am sorry if I have not done this very well as yet, but I am still trying.   

My wife saw a bathroom mirror in the reduced items corner of a local DIY shed, we needed a replacement, I took it upstairs with my drill, plugs, screwdriver and level etc.

Unbelievable when I offered it up to check size distance between where the fixings would have to go, you could have knocked me down with a feather, it was millimetre perfect into the same plug holes of the some twenty year old preceding mirror, now I took that logically as a several million to one chance, how would you have translated that?

I would be interested in any answer you may like to give.

ippy 

[Maeght]

1. There's no definitive evidence that humans even have free will;

There may be no scientific evidence for free will, but there is plenty of evidence for it in human perception (which is also undefined by science).

I assume by this you mean something like "some people feel that they have free will, therefore there really is such a thing as free will." If that's the case you're going to be exceedingly unhappy with what's been coming out of neuroscience these past few years.

No amount of neuroscience can take away the reality of my ability to choose what I want to do.

Of course it can.

[floo]

Perhaps you have not yet recognised God's answer to your prayers, which often come through other people.

Can you suggest a methodology by which you can tell the difference between:

(1) The existence of God and that God working through other people

and

(2) No God and people just doing people stuff.

Because without that, it's worthless, Al. Sorry and all that, but as a hypothesis it's junk.

There is no methodolgy I can quote, but I can look back on my life and see amazing answers to prayer which have come through other people.  You just know when it happens.  Of course it will be much more difficult to discern how God works in your life if you have lost faith.  I am certain God brought me into contact with this web forum to give witness to Him, and I am sorry if I have not done this very well as yet, but I am still trying.   

My wife saw a bathroom mirror in the reduced items corner of a local DIY shed, we needed a replacement, I took it upstairs with my drill, plugs, screwdriver and level etc.

Unbelievable when I offered it up to check size distance between where the fixings would have to go, you could have knocked me down with a feather, it was millimetre perfect into the same plug holes of the some twenty year old preceding mirror, now I took that logically as a several million to one chance, how would you have translated that?

I would be interested in any answer you may like to give.

ippy

Well naturally the deity ensured the mirror was the correct size for your wall, there is no other explanation!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps you have not yet recognised God's answer to your prayers, which often come through other people.

Can you suggest a methodology by which you can tell the difference between:

(1) The existence of God and that God working through other people

and

(2) No God and people just doing people stuff.

Because without that, it's worthless, Al. Sorry and all that, but as a hypothesis it's junk.

There is no methodolgy I can quote, but I can look back on my life and see amazing answers to prayer which have come through other people.  You just know when it happens.  Of course it will be much more difficult to discern how God works in your life if you have lost faith.  I am certain God brought me into contact with this web forum to give witness to Him, and I am sorry if I have not done this very well as yet, but I am still trying.   

My wife saw a bathroom mirror in the reduced items corner of a local DIY shed, we needed a replacement, I took it upstairs with my drill, plugs, screwdriver and level etc.

Unbelievable when I offered it up to check size distance between where the fixings would have to go, you could have knocked me down with a feather, it was millimetre perfect into the same plug holes of the some twenty year old preceding mirror, now I took that logically as a several million to one chance, how would you have translated that?

I would be interested in any answer you may like to give.

ippy

Perhaps mirrors come in standard sizes like paper...you know A4,A3 and so on......or New atheists A.Hole, Mega A Hole. and Horseman of the apocalypse.

[torridon]

Yet another assertion, without any evidence to back it up! If the deity exists why doesn't the so and so come out of the closet and stop playing stupid games with humans?

We can all play the game of saying "If I were God I would do things differently" but things are as they are, and God has made Himself known to us in the form of Jesus, and He has given us the freedom of choice to follow Him or not.  This is the reality and we are in no position to change it, however much we would like to.

We cannot change facts, but we can use our experience and intelligence to form an understanding of our situation that is as true to life as possible.  Your god-become-man story might be an engaging narrative to build a world view around, but in terms of authentic true to life description of our situation I find it a complete non-starter; given there is no serious evidence for gods, for souls, for free-will, for devils, for heaven, for hell, for miracles, for spirits holy or otherwise, it looks to me like you live your life in a self-referential fantasy world that at no point touches with reality.  That kind of detachment would not be for me, I prefer to keep my feet on the ground and my mind focussed on what is real, and what is true.

[SusanDoris]

This afternoon I have attended a very well supported (about 85 people) Dorset Humanist Group meeting with Professor David Hand as the speaker. The subject was probability and the chances that the impossible sometimes will happen!! It was very interesting, especially as he spoke well and clearly too, no ums and ers.

[Shaker]

This afternoon I have attended a very well supported (about 85 people) Dorset Humanist Group meeting with Professor David Hind as the speaker. The subject was probability and the chances that the impossible sometimes will happen!! It was very interesting, especially as he spoke well and clearly too, no ums and ers.

That sounds good, SD; I'd have liked to have heard that too 

Perhaps Prof. Hind pointed out that humans are innately pretty rubbish at estimating probabilities!

[Alan Burns]

We cannot change facts, but we can use our experience and intelligence to form an understanding of our situation that is as true to life as possible.  Your god-become-man story might be an engaging narrative to build a world view around, but in terms of authentic true to life description of our situation I find it a complete non-starter; given there is no serious evidence for gods, for souls, for free-will, for devils, for heaven, for hell, for miracles, for spirits holy or otherwise, it looks to me like you live your life in a self-referential fantasy world that at no point touches with reality.  That kind of detachment would not be for me, I prefer to keep my feet on the ground and my mind focussed on what is real, and what is true.

But your version of keeping your feet on the ground entails the sacrifice of your ability of excercise free will.  You are just a blob of matter resulting from unguided forces of nature with no meaning or purpose.  You are just a trivial accident in the dimensions of time and space.

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

[Alan Burns]

My wife saw a bathroom mirror in the reduced items corner of a local DIY shed, we needed a replacement, I took it upstairs with my drill, plugs, screwdriver and level etc.

Unbelievable when I offered it up to check size distance between where the fixings would have to go, you could have knocked me down with a feather, it was millimetre perfect into the same plug holes of the some twenty year old preceding mirror, now I took that logically as a several million to one chance, how would you have translated that?

I would be interested in any answer you may like to give.

ippy

There can be many one-off coincidences, but when these coincidences happen time after time you have to consider that there may be a cause.

[Shaker]

But your version of keeping your feet on the ground entails the sacrifice of your ability of excercise free will.

Free will is that thing which you have signally failed to demonstrate that human beings possess and which recent developments in neuroscience suggests - I will stick my neck out and say increasingly suggests - is an illusion.

You are just a blob of matter resulting from unguided forces of nature

We're all that - you, me, your children, the fly battering itself against my kitchen window yesterday until let out, the aphids that cover the lemon balm in my back garden. Why is that such a monumental problem for you, Alan? Are you so existentially insecure that your existence has no worth until and unless you think yourself the special creation of a personal, conscious agent? To me that seems to be the essence of religion. I find that extremely weird. Here I am, an existent in the world just like you are, what Sartre called ętre-pour-soi and not ętre-en-soi. Don't fret; this is only something that Sartre devotees really need bother themselves with, which amounts to Gary Cox - arguably the foremost Sartre expert in the Anglophone world today - and me and a few other people who don't get out much but read a lot. My world is not the world that you describe.

with no meaning or purpose.

You forget, or are unaware, of the difference between proximate and ultimate meaning/purpose. Personally I'm absolutely fine with proximate meaning and purpose. I see absolutely no reason to think that there is any such thing as ultimate meaning/purpose.

You are just a trivial accident in the dimensions of time and space.

'Trivial' is the problem here. That's the word/concept to which I take exception. Otherwise, yes, absolutely and entirely. Why is this a problem?

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.

No you can't. You could assure me with a rational argument based upon sound evidential principles and a case based upon an interconnected series of mutually reinforceable evidence-based statements.

You have been created

By my parents.

and you are loved.

By the nearest and dearest - family members; friends - who love me.

A statement of the bleeding obvious if ever there was one.

[Leonard James]

There can be many one-off coincidences, but when these coincidences happen time after time you have to consider that there may be a cause.

The cause is obvious, Alan. Your mind simply attributes them to "God".

[Alan Burns]

Free will is that thing which you have signally failed to demonstrate that human beings possess and which recent developments in neuroscience suggests - I will stick my neck out and say increasingly suggests - is an illusion.

But I have just demonstrated it by my response 

[Alan Burns]

There can be many one-off coincidences, but when these coincidences happen time after time you have to consider that there may be a cause.

The cause is obvious, Alan. Your mind simply attributes them to "God".

Yes, Len the cause is indeed obvious.   

[Leonard James]

There can be many one-off coincidences, but when these coincidences happen time after time you have to consider that there may be a cause.

The cause is obvious, Alan. Your mind simply attributes them to "God".

Yes, Len the cause is indeed obvious.   

Erroneously attributes them to "God"!   

[SusanDoris]

There can be many one-off coincidences, but when these coincidences happen time after time you have to consider that there may be a cause.

Prof David Hand has a book with a title The Improbability Principle'
which I might suggest you have a look at!!

Note: Just realised I wrote 'Hind' instead of 'Hand' in previous post.

[torridon]

We cannot change facts, but we can use our experience and intelligence to form an understanding of our situation that is as true to life as possible.  Your god-become-man story might be an engaging narrative to build a world view around, but in terms of authentic true to life description of our situation I find it a complete non-starter; given there is no serious evidence for gods, for souls, for free-will, for devils, for heaven, for hell, for miracles, for spirits holy or otherwise, it looks to me like you live your life in a self-referential fantasy world that at no point touches with reality.  That kind of detachment would not be for me, I prefer to keep my feet on the ground and my mind focussed on what is real, and what is true.

But your version of keeping your feet on the ground entails the sacrifice of your ability of excercise free will.  You are just a blob of matter resulting from unguided forces of nature with no meaning or purpose.  You are just a trivial accident in the dimensions of time and space.

My version of 'keeping your feet on the ground' amounts to being accepting of reality instead of denying it. Your way of thinking about life might be cosy, who would not want to believe they are loved by a heavenly father; who would not want to believe they can live forever in bliss ? I might have believed such fantasies too when I was a child but unfortunately I have grown up into an adult and that has entailed putting away the sugary beliefs to make space to grow an adult understanding that is truer to reality.  This might be harsh, and I know its not for everyone, many people retain some childlike aspects to their thinking throughout life, but for me the payback of deeper understanding and becoming more honest with myself outweighs the loss of comfort beliefs.