Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3876925 times)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1000 on: June 14, 2015, 07:27:05 AM »

Free will is that thing which you have signally failed to demonstrate that human beings possess and which recent developments in neuroscience suggests - I will stick my neck out and say increasingly suggests - is an illusion.
But I have just demonstrated it by my response  :)

How is that a demonstration of free will?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1001 on: June 14, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »
Quote from: Alan Burns link=topic=10333.msg529429#msg529429

No amount of neuroscience can take away the reality of my ability to choose what I want to do.
[/quote

Of course it can.
But neuroscience can only offer an observation of the molecular activity involved in implementing an act of free will.  It will not reveal the ultimate reason behind the chemical activity.  It is a bit like trying to decipher the source of a written novel by examining the chemical properties of the ink and paper.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 09:59:22 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1002 on: June 14, 2015, 10:22:57 AM »
And the ultimate reason behind the chemical activity is revealed by - oh well, guessing, I suppose.   Still, one guess is as good as another, so I vote for blue's little pixies dancing in my brain, the naughty little imps. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1003 on: June 14, 2015, 10:59:53 AM »
Quote from: Alan Burns link=topic=10333.msg529429#msg529429

No amount of neuroscience can take away the reality of my ability to choose what I want to do.
[/quote

Of course it can.
But neuroscience can only offer an observation of the molecular activity involved in implementing an act of free will.

Or just implementing an act - without free will.

Quote
It will not reveal the ultimate reason behind the chemical activity.  It is a bit like trying to decipher the source of a written novel by examining the chemical properties of the ink and paper.

What ultimate reason? Why does the chemical activity have to be abything more than a response to stimulus?

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1004 on: June 14, 2015, 11:28:18 AM »

What ultimate reason? Why does the chemical activity have to be anything more than a response to stimulus?

That's all it is, and our reaction to stimulus is self-generated by the complex activity of our nature/nurture produced brains.

To look for reasons external to ourselves is to chase rainbows.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1005 on: June 14, 2015, 11:48:28 AM »
But neuroscience can only offer an observation of the molecular activity involved in implementing an act of free will.  It will not reveal the ultimate reason behind the chemical activity.  It is a bit like trying to decipher the source of a written novel by examining the chemical properties of the ink and paper.

That there is a reason for the choices we make is ultimately why we could not, would not, would not want,  to have free will in the full sense of the phrase.  Your brain is a biological decision making apparatus that makes wise choices and there would be no point, no benefit, in having that decision making system free of its primary purpose, or free of the constraints of its system of implementation. Decisions that were truly free would be meaningless, random. Choices have to be unfree, in order to be meaningful and useful; they have to satisfy their need.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 12:18:34 PM by torridon »

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1006 on: June 14, 2015, 01:29:12 PM »
Absolutely.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1007 on: June 14, 2015, 02:23:25 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1008 on: June 14, 2015, 04:21:29 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
In the battle between good and evil, there will inevitably be casualties.  No one can escape some form of suffering in their lives on this earth, but ultimately the escape is to hold on to the lifeline Jesus has given us and allow Him to bring us to our true home in heaven.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 06:54:58 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1009 on: June 14, 2015, 04:38:00 PM »
But neuroscience can only offer an observation of the molecular activity involved in implementing an act of free will.  It will not reveal the ultimate reason behind the chemical activity.  It is a bit like trying to decipher the source of a written novel by examining the chemical properties of the ink and paper.

That there is a reason for the choices we make is ultimately why we could not, would not, would not want,  to have free will in the full sense of the phrase.  Your brain is a biological decision making apparatus that makes wise choices and there would be no point, no benefit, in having that decision making system free of its primary purpose, or free of the constraints of its system of implementation. Decisions that were truly free would be meaningless, random. Choices have to be unfree, in order to be meaningful and useful; they have to satisfy their need.
But there is so much more to our humanity than a biological decision making machine.  Neuroscience will no doubt confirm the workings of the biological bit, but there is much more involved.

Just taking the analogy of the printed word a bit further, you do not discover the meaning of the word by analysing the ink and paper, but if the meaning exists in human consciousness, where does this meaning actually reside in the biological machine?  Is it inside a brain cell?  If so, how is it represented?  Can neuroscience discover the meaning within our physical brain?  Can meaning be defined in physical terms and can we discover where is resides?  Can this analogy throw new light on the profound opening of St John's gospel - In the begining was the word ....   
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 05:14:03 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1010 on: June 14, 2015, 04:40:05 PM »
Alan reminds me of a speak your weight machine.   You ask a question, and you get a robotic reply, which sounds as if it was written on an index card.  Your question has been forwarded to our HQ, and the reply is that we all suffer, but we will have our reward when God brings us to blah blah blah.  Next.  Your question has been forwarded to HQ, and the reply is that Jesus will bring you to blah blah blah.   Next.   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1011 on: June 14, 2015, 05:24:55 PM »
Alan reminds me of a speak your weight machine.   You ask a question, and you get a robotic reply, which sounds as if it was written on an index card.  Your question has been forwarded to our HQ, and the reply is that we all suffer, but we will have our reward when God brings us to blah blah blah.  Next.  Your question has been forwarded to HQ, and the reply is that Jesus will bring you to blah blah blah.   Next.

Sarcasm:  the lowest form of wit,  but. still you at your best!   You should do some soul-searching:  you might just find one.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 05:42:10 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1012 on: June 14, 2015, 05:41:03 PM »
Alan reminds me of a speak your weight machine.   You ask a question, and you get a robotic reply, which sounds as if it was written on an index card.  Your question has been forwarded to our HQ, and the reply is that we all suffer, but we will have our reward when God brings us to blah blah blah.  Next.  Your question has been forwarded to HQ, and the reply is that Jesus will bring you to blah blah blah.   Next.

An excellent analogy!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1013 on: June 14, 2015, 05:44:29 PM »
Alan reminds me of a speak your weight machine.   You ask a question, and you get a robotic reply, which sounds as if it was written on an index card.  Your question has been forwarded to our HQ, and the reply is that we all suffer, but we will have our reward when God brings us to blah blah blah.  Next.  Your question has been forwarded to HQ, and the reply is that Jesus will bring you to blah blah blah.   Next.

An excellent analogy!

analogy:
noun,
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification    So, not an analogy, just a cheap shot.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1014 on: June 14, 2015, 07:04:14 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
In the battle between good and evil, there will inevitably be casualties.  No one can escape some form of suffering in their lives on this earth, but ultimately the escape is to hold on to the lifeline Jesus has given us and allow Him to bring us to our true home in heaven.

That's not an answer to my question. But don't worry, I wasn't really expecting anything sensible, because there is no sensible answer.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1015 on: June 14, 2015, 07:17:53 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
We know that certain economic systems favour the health of the wealthy and their ''fruit.''


Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1016 on: June 14, 2015, 07:27:10 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
We know that certain economic systems favour the health of the wealthy and their ''fruit.''

Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1017 on: June 14, 2015, 07:39:42 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
We know that certain economic systems favour the health of the wealthy and their ''fruit.''

Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?

Yes it shows that God both loves and that part of that is free will  and what is known as universal aseity.
If you don't believe in the establishment of universal justice, and you don't, then of course it all seems unjust. If you do believe in cosmic restitution then the questions become rather different to what you are asking.

Finally coming from an outfit which apparently praises itself for saying ''I don't know''( AKA Her Britannic Majesty's Own Unbelievers ) you are awfully pushy about wanting the answers.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1018 on: June 14, 2015, 08:05:39 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
We know that certain economic systems favour the health of the wealthy and their ''fruit.''

Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?

Yes it shows that God both loves and that part of that is free will  and what is known as universal aseity.
If you don't believe in the establishment of universal justice, and you don't, then of course it all seems unjust. If you do believe in cosmic restitution then the questions become rather different to what you are asking.

Finally coming from an outfit which apparently praises itself for saying ''I don't know''( AKA Her Britannic Majesty's Own Unbelievers ) you are awfully pushy about wanting the answers.

Yes, dear. Whatever  you say!  :)

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1019 on: June 14, 2015, 08:11:33 PM »

But I can assure you that you are much more than that.  You have been created and you are loved.

Then tell me, Alan, why do some 'loved' people live happy and fruitful lives and die peacefully, while other 'loved' people have to suffer a great deal and die suffering?

If you are so informed about it as to know that "God" created us and loves us, why don't you know the answer to that?
We know that certain economic systems favour the health of the wealthy and their ''fruit.''

Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?

Yes it shows that God both loves and that part of that is free will  and what is known as universal aseity.
If you don't believe in the establishment of universal justice, and you don't, then of course it all seems unjust. If you do believe in cosmic restitution then the questions become rather different to what you are asking.

Finally coming from an outfit which apparently praises itself for saying ''I don't know''( AKA Her Britannic Majesty's Own Unbelievers ) you are awfully pushy about wanting the answers.

Yes, dear. Whatever  you say!  :)

Lenny's turned on the emergency, "I can't think of an answer button!"  Shaky, quick, help him out (again!)
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1020 on: June 14, 2015, 08:13:42 PM »
With Vlad's posts? Nobody can help with those!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1021 on: June 14, 2015, 08:15:22 PM »
With Vlad's posts? Nobody can help with those!

No, with Lenny's post.  But I guess nobody can help with those, either!
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1022 on: June 14, 2015, 08:20:30 PM »
Oh gawd, the heavenly twins are at it again!  :(

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1023 on: June 14, 2015, 08:25:35 PM »
Oh gawd, the heavenly twins are at it again!  :(

Shaky, Shaky, he's calling you names!   Come and stop him! :o
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1024 on: June 14, 2015, 08:33:39 PM »
Oh gawd, the heavenly twins are at it again!  :(

Shaky, Shaky, he's calling you names!   Come and stop him! :o

 ::) ::) ::)