Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3875937 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1200 on: June 17, 2015, 06:23:34 PM »
That and stuffing ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1201 on: June 17, 2015, 09:10:40 PM »
That and stuffing ;)
You can talk, Sooty.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1202 on: June 17, 2015, 10:20:33 PM »
Actually, Sooty can't.

Or at least, very, very, very quietly.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1203 on: June 17, 2015, 11:20:25 PM »
I mentioned to my wife that there are some very intelligent people who say that free will is an illusion.  She responded by blowing a very loud rasberry while waving her arms up and down, then said "get them to analyse that".
So there is a challenge.
What built in instinct and logic was responsible in my wife's brain to initiate this behaviour?
Warning - she may have some more challenging tests to come!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1204 on: June 18, 2015, 01:56:00 AM »
It's quite a sweet idea that Alan's soul sits in front of a monitor, watching all the inputs to the brain, and synthesizing them, and now and again, presses a button or pulls a gear lever, marked 'food' or 'drink' or 'sex' or 'TV'.   And when the monitor goes wrong, you have to call a technician, who will maybe replace for free, or more likely, just switch it off for a minute, and then switch it on.   Cheers mate, £300 to you. 

If only there was some evidence for it, but Alan knows, you see.

What a pathetic post!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1205 on: June 18, 2015, 05:29:54 AM »
I mentioned to my wife that there are some very intelligent people who say that free will is an illusion.  She responded by blowing a very loud rasberry while waving her arms up and down, then said "get them to analyse that".
So there is a challenge.
What built in instinct and logic was responsible in my wife's brain to initiate this behaviour?
Warning - she may have some more challenging tests to come!

How does this demonstrate free will if she reacted negatively to the view due to her beliefs and views and displayed this in a learnt behavioural manner? Could she have responded in a different way? You just seem to be saying that because people make an apparent decision that this is a free one but cannot show that it is free in any way - which I am not surprised about because how could it be clearly demonstrated that any decision is free from influences from our prior experiences? Just giving examples of where people responded to things or made apparent choices does not demonstrate that free will exists.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 05:38:14 AM by Maeght »

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1206 on: June 18, 2015, 06:14:22 AM »
Maeght #1233


Nice post.:)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1207 on: June 18, 2015, 06:58:14 AM »
I mentioned to my wife that there are some very intelligent people who say that free will is an illusion.  She responded by blowing a very loud rasberry while waving her arms up and down, then said "get them to analyse that".
So there is a challenge.
What built in instinct and logic was responsible in my wife's brain to initiate this behaviour?
Warning - she may have some more challenging tests to come!

She'll have to do better than that I'm afraid; all that anecdote illustrates is that she, like you, simply has not understood the issue. Many people take free will to mean that we can do things that are out of character, that is a trivial understanding of the issue and if that is what you want to call free will then fair enough.

However if you or your wife want to develop a deeper understanding of the issue then take this challenge - try to want something that you don't want. For example, assuming you are heterosexual, use your will to make yourself want to be gay.  I don't think you can honestly do this, any more than you can use your will to make yourself believe something that you don't believe.

These observations illustrate a deep truth about all life that you simply haven't yet understood - that we are fashioned by nature, we do not fashion it. We start out life gifted a shuffled pack of parental genes over which we have no control, this sets the broad parameters for what we can become, and subsequently what we actually become depends on the experiences that come our way; thus your wife to date has become someone who would quite likely choose blowing a raspberry as a way of expressing indignation in a comic manner.

Our will expresses our personal nature but we cannot control the fundamental laws of nature, we are subject to them, we are manifestations of them. If you think you can be free of your nature by dint of willpower, then take my test and try to want to be gay this afternoon; let us know how you got on.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1208 on: June 18, 2015, 07:11:16 AM »
Thanks Susan.

Good post too torridon. I would guess that the key for many who believe freewill exists is that the brain simply receives the decisions made by an external consciousness or soul which is not effected by genetics etc since it is non-material. Or it seems to be being suggested that much of what we do is due to the brain but this soul/consciousness can override it in certain situations. This seems a bit of a 'have your cake and eat it' scenario to me designed to fit with a theology that requires that humans make a free choice regarding Jesus/God rather than being supported by any actual evidence. Sriram would quote NDEs and the like as evidence of a consciousness not resulting from a brain though of course.

Until there is clear evidence of a consciousness separate from the brain then the concept of freewill seems unlikely to me - but would be fascinated in learning about it if it was 'discovered'. It is not fundamental to my lack of believe in God as has also been suggested whereas I think the reverse is not true for some.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1209 on: June 18, 2015, 07:18:12 AM »
Yes, I would say that to believe in free will, it helps to be a dualist of some sort or other. If you are a dualist, then you have the scope to talk about the tension between the two 'selves'.  If there is only one self, then there is no such scope for inner conflict; something cannot be free of itself, it simply doesn't make any coherent sense.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1210 on: June 18, 2015, 07:23:25 AM »
Your nature/nurture decides what you are likely to do in a given situation, but you can always choose to do otherwise. That is because you have free will.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1211 on: June 18, 2015, 07:27:21 AM »
Furthermore, a great deal of nurture is learned behaviour. The behaviour had to start with somebody, and since that somebody had nobody to learn it from, it must have been due to their nature, i.e., genetic.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1212 on: June 18, 2015, 07:34:16 AM »
Your nature/nurture decides what you are likely to do in a given situation, but you can always choose to do otherwise. That is because you have free will.

No, Len, we can only choose to do otherwise within a limited range. If we are capable of choosing to steal it is because somewhere we have through nature or nurture a belief that it is ok to steal.

Try choosing to be a pagan. You can't. Any more than Alan could.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1213 on: June 18, 2015, 07:37:59 AM »
Your nature/nurture decides what you are likely to do in a given situation, but you can always choose to do otherwise. That is because you have free will.

No, Len, we can only choose to do otherwise within a limited range. If we are capable of choosing to steal it is because somewhere we have through nature or nurture a belief that it is ok to steal.

Try choosing to be a pagan. You can't. Any more than Alan could.

I did not say that you can choose to believe ... in fact I know you can't from personal experience.. I said that you can choose how you act. Even though you believe stealing is wrong, you can still choose to do so. That is free will.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1214 on: June 18, 2015, 07:45:48 AM »
Your nature/nurture decides what you are likely to do in a given situation, but you can always choose to do otherwise. That is because you have free will.

No, Len, we can only choose to do otherwise within a limited range. If we are capable of choosing to steal it is because somewhere we have through nature or nurture a belief that it is ok to steal.

Try choosing to be a pagan. You can't. Any more than Alan could.

I did not say that you can choose to believe ... in fact I know you can't from personal experience.. I said that you can choose how you act. Even though you believe stealing is wrong, you can still choose to do so. That is free will.

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1215 on: June 18, 2015, 07:51:34 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1216 on: June 18, 2015, 07:56:02 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

No, because on some level you don't think it wrong in that moment. For example, you might have an unconscious view that your desire for something overrides the wrongness of taking it. Or you think you might be justified in stealing from someone very rich. Or to feed your family. Or to stop a bully. Or you might think it amusing. Something in that moment makes doing something wrong acceptable for you.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1217 on: June 18, 2015, 07:59:59 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

No, because on some level you don't think it wrong in that moment. For example, you might have an unconscious view that your desire for something overrides the wrongness of taking it. Or you think you might be justified in stealing from someone very rich. Or to feed your family. Or to stop a bully. Or you might think it amusing. Something in that moment makes doing something wrong acceptable for you.

Or because I want to demonstrate that I have free will.  :)

This is like the chicken and the egg.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1218 on: June 18, 2015, 08:02:13 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

No, because on some level you don't think it wrong in that moment. For example, you might have an unconscious view that your desire for something overrides the wrongness of taking it. Or you think you might be justified in stealing from someone very rich. Or to feed your family. Or to stop a bully. Or you might think it amusing. Something in that moment makes doing something wrong acceptable for you.

Or because I want to demonstrate that I have free will.  :)

This is like the chicken and the egg.

Why would you want to demonstrate that? Because at some point somebody taught it to you. Or because your experiences have led you to believe that. And you want to demonstrate it to prove it right, to yourself or others.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sapient-nature/201205/free-will-is-illusion-so-what

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1219 on: June 18, 2015, 08:16:03 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Your choice could still be determined by nature/nurture and the like so isn't free but is a preprogrammed response. Simply saying it is a free choice therefore freewill doesn't really help and doesn't really get us anywhere.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1220 on: June 18, 2015, 08:20:37 AM »

Why would you want to demonstrate that?
To show you that I have free will.

Quote
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sapient-nature/201205/free-will-is-illusion-so-what

I don't agree with him. I think he is wrong.  :)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1221 on: June 18, 2015, 08:22:49 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Your choice could still be determined by nature/nurture and the like so isn't free but is a preprogrammed response. Simply saying it is a free choice therefore freewill doesn't really help and doesn't really get us anywhere.

And there will be a reason for making the choice, to steal or not to steal. Reasons for doing things come from circumstances - nature/nurture and the situation that we find ourselves in. It is possible to steal knowing it to be wrong because consciously or unconsciously our reason says it is ok for us to steal in that moment because xyz.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1222 on: June 18, 2015, 08:24:04 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Your choice could still be determined by nature/nurture and the like so isn't free but is a preprogrammed response. Simply saying it is a free choice therefore freewill doesn't really help and doesn't really get us anywhere.

If I do something against my better opinion to show you that I have free will, it is because I have the free will to do so.

When was I pre-programmed to do that?

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1223 on: June 18, 2015, 08:26:40 AM »
Sorry guys, gotta go now. Back later.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1224 on: June 18, 2015, 08:30:29 AM »

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Your choice could still be determined by nature/nurture and the like so isn't free but is a preprogrammed response. Simply saying it is a free choice therefore freewill doesn't really help and doesn't really get us anywhere.

If I do something against my better opinion to show you that I have free will, it is because I have the free will to do so.

When was I pre-programmed to do that?

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.