Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

http://www.livescience.com/46411-free-will-is-background-noise.html

Have a good day, Len. 

[Maeght]

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

I am still choosing to do it knowing that it is wrong. That is free will.

Your choice could still be determined by nature/nurture and the like so isn't free but is a preprogrammed response. Simply saying it is a free choice therefore freewill doesn't really help and doesn't really get us anywhere.

If I do something against my better opinion to show you that I have free will, it is because I have the free will to do so.

When was I pre-programmed to do that?

Throughout your prior existence. What does 'against my better opinion' actually mean anyway? What you would normally do perhaps? But you've never been in that exact position before and never had the exact same prior experiences and therefore 'programming'.

[Alan Burns]

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

You are effectively saying that every decision that every human being has ever made was cast in stone and they could not possibly have chosen to do anything else, which would be true if all our brain activity is driven only by past events. 

We cannot choose to alter our physical nature, but I am certain that my conscious awareness has the freedom to choose which keys to press on this keyboard.

[Alan Burns]

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.

Just quoting a logical reason for doing something does not prove anything.  At any one time there are hundreds of choices I could make, all of which have a logical reason, but I have the freedom to choose which one to invoke.

[Rhiannon]

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

You are effectively saying that every decision that every human being has ever made was cast in stone and they could not possibly have chosen to do anything else, which would be true if all our brain activity is driven only by past events. 

We cannot choose to alter our physical nature, but I am certain that my conscious awareness has the freedom to choose which keys to press on this keyboard.

What are your reasons for typing what you do?

[Spud]

Assuming that "God" created us, he created us without wings, and consequently we can't fly. That doesn't mean we have no free will.

Substitute "incapable of doing wrong" for "wings", and the same thing applies.

Would you want your kids to be like this, or is it better that they choose to do right?

[Spud]

We are not omniscient

But we know before we have our kids that they will sometimes be naughty.

[Rhiannon]

We are not omniscient

But we know before we have our kids that they will sometimes be naughty.

That's because they need to learn and develope. Misbehaving is a very important part of that.

[Nearly Sane]

We are not omniscient

But we know before we have our kids that they will sometimes be naughty.

But we do not chose to create them naughty. The analogy doesn't work because your God choses that we will need to be punished.

[Nearly Sane]

Also, of course, killing our children, as Spud believes his god did, is not seen as a respectable punishment

[Rhiannon]

I think the biggest shame is that according to Christian teaching we will never be good enough, we will always be miserable sinners in our Father's eyes. Parents who treat their children as though they 'have no health' (ie morality, goodness) in them are guilty of emotional abuse.

But of course controlling through shame is very powerful. So the church invented a god that demands shame and control.

[Sassy]

I know I have free will.

No, you don't. You believe it, and furthermore, want to believe it. You have an emotional, ideological commitment to free will being a reality.

Fruit bowl... do I get to choose what I want from the fruit bowl? Free will exists only a pillock would deny it...

I simply can't imagine how any other human being could ever doubt it.

Because some people realise that wanting something to be the case and believing it to be the case is about as bad a guide to reality as you can get.

[/quote]

Isn't that free will according to definition?

It is also just another stupid excuse without any grounds from an atheist..
Tell me did someone tell you what to write? That bleddy free will is working bleddy wonders for you, isn't it. You have to be a pratt to pretend or deny free will exists...

It would mean that likes and dislikes would be cancelled out.. If no free choice you could not stop yourself taking a piece of fruit from the bowl that you dislike the taste of...

Go get some new excuses... Your so far back in the closet if denial you are in Narnia...

[Maeght]

No, you can't. If you choose to steal knowing it is wrong it is because you believe it is acceptable for you to do something wrong for some reason.

You are effectively saying that every decision that every human being has ever made was cast in stone

Set in stone? I think people who don't see that freewill exists are saying that every decision made is as a result of how the brain processes information and that that depends on how the brain has been programmed by nature and nurture. This programming can and does change throughout ones lifetime.

... and they could not possibly have chosen to do anything else,

At that moment, yes.

... which would be true if all our brain activity is driven only by past events.

Correct.

We cannot choose to alter our physical nature, but I am certain that my conscious awareness has the freedom to choose which keys to press on this keyboard.

Clearly you are certain but you cannot demonstrate any proof of that.

[Sassy]

]
No, you don't. You believe it, and furthermore, want to believe it. You have an emotional, ideological commitment to free will being a reality.

So just explain to me how I could want to believe in free will if I don't have it?

The same way a person might 'want' to believe in God, and sets about 'searching' for God. People might want to believe in God and after life for all sorts of fairly obvious reasons; likewise people like to believe in free will because it is flattering, as if we are not products of nature, but something independent of it.

You don't want to believe in a God when in all truth there could not be anything after life if there isn't one and being dead means being dead no existence like before birth...

You boxed clever no giving any obvious reasons because there isn't any  that comes to your mind, is there?

Believing in God for honest people is about truth. And if you have not grasped by now that people carry on believing because they have that truth then you really are clutching at none existent straws for an argument...

Nah, the post you made is completely senseless and irresponsible if you have NO obvious reasons just a statement without evidence.

Your free will allowed you to form an opinion but your brain never allowed you to think it through before you wrote it down.
Why is that? Could it be your free will choice to think and do as you say?

[floo]

I know I have free will.

No, you don't. You believe it, and furthermore, want to believe it. You have an emotional, ideological commitment to free will being a reality.

Fruit bowl... do I get to choose what I want from the fruit bowl? Free will exists only a pillock would deny it...

I simply can't imagine how any other human being could ever doubt it.

Because some people realise that wanting something to be the case and believing it to be the case is about as bad a guide to reality as you can get.

Isn't that free will according to definition?

It is also just another stupid excuse without any grounds from an atheist..
Tell me did someone tell you what to write? That bleddy free will is working bleddy wonders for you, isn't it. You have to be a pratt to pretend or deny free will exists...

It would mean that likes and dislikes would be cancelled out.. If no free choice you could not stop yourself taking a piece of fruit from the bowl that you dislike the taste of...

Go get some new excuses... Your so far back in the closet if denial you are in Narnia...
[/quote]



More total Sass twaddle, but I have had my first giggle of the day!

[Sassy]

We've gone over this many times with Alan it won't make any difference because Alan has to believe that we have soul's and free will to fit in with his theology.

And atheists have to believe that free will is an illusion in order to fit in with the deterministic nature of science.

Like atheism, it is the default position; until such time as someone finds some evidence in support of the idea of free will then we should regard it as one more fanciful product of our cognitive biases rather than something to be taken seriously.

How do you manage to keep your face straight.
I for one would never have written the above, even as an atheist.
I cannot believe, Alan is actually giving you any time over this...
What a load of bleddy Rubbish... No one really believes free will does not exist.
In the dictionary it says...


free will
noun
noun: freewill
1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms:   volition, independence, self-determination, self-sufficiency, autonomy, spontaneity; More
antonyms:   under duress
adjective
adjective: freewill
1.
(especially of a donation) voluntary.
"free-will offerings"
Free will exists...

It is in the dictionary....

It does exist and you are having  a laugh at Alan's expense...
But the real joke is on you...

[Maeght]

Fruit bowl... do I get to choose what I want from the fruit bowl? Free will exists only a pillock would deny it...

Clearly you make a selection. Is this selection free or influenced by prior events? If not then its not free will being demonstrated. Not very clever to call people pillocks either. Many very intelligent thinkers have questioned free will.

It is also just another stupid excuse without any grounds from an atheist..

Questioning freewill is not an excuse but a very valid thing to do. If you could argue the point and demonstrate freewill (and that doesn't mean simply give an example of choosing something) then go for it.

Tell me did someone tell you what to write? That bleddy free will is working bleddy wonders for you, isn't it. You have to be a pratt to pretend or deny free will exists...

See above pillock comment.

It would mean that likes and dislikes would be cancelled out.. If no free choice you could not stop yourself taking a piece of fruit from the bowl that you dislike the taste of...

No it does not mean that! The point of saying it is not a free choice is that you make your choice on the basis of prior influences such as having tasted the fruit before and finding the tast bad. Likes and dislikes influencing your choices are a basic example of why choices are not free.

Go get some new excuses... Your so far back in the closet if denial you are in Narnia...

Silly coment which doesn't add to the discussion.

[Sassy]

I know I have free will.

No, you don't. You believe it, and furthermore, want to believe it. You have an emotional, ideological commitment to free will being a reality.

Fruit bowl... do I get to choose what I want from the fruit bowl? Free will exists only a pillock would deny it...

I simply can't imagine how any other human being could ever doubt it.

Because some people realise that wanting something to be the case and believing it to be the case is about as bad a guide to reality as you can get.

Isn't that free will according to definition?

It is also just another stupid excuse without any grounds from an atheist..
Tell me did someone tell you what to write? That bleddy free will is working bleddy wonders for you, isn't it. You have to be a pratt to pretend or deny free will exists...

It would mean that likes and dislikes would be cancelled out.. If no free choice you could not stop yourself taking a piece of fruit from the bowl that you dislike the taste of...

Go get some new excuses... Your so far back in the closet if denial you are in Narnia...

More total Sass twaddle, but I have had my first giggle of the day!
[/quote]

Floo is in the altogether...
Emperors new clothes floo shows how stupid she can make herself look without any help from others...

Go back to sleep...

[ekim]

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.

Just quoting a logical reason for doing something does not prove anything.  At any one time there are hundreds of choices I could make, all of which have a logical reason, but I have the freedom to choose which one to invoke.

It could be argued, though, that your choice is driven by logical reasoning.  I think 'choice' is different to 'will'.  You can choose between head and tails when spinning a coin but willing the outcome is something different and it is difficult to demonstrate how this can be free from motive.  If 'will' is the intension to act or not act then perhaps you (as consciousness) can become free from 'will' by inner stillness, where desires and other mental activities either cease or cease to have effect.  'Be still and know that I am Being'.

[Rhiannon]

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.

Just quoting a logical reason for doing something does not prove anything.  At any one time there are hundreds of choices I could make, all of which have a logical reason, but I have the freedom to choose which one to invoke.

Why? What makes you choose the one that you do?

[horsethorn]

We've gone over this many times with Alan it won't make any difference because Alan has to believe that we have soul's and free will to fit in with his theology.

And atheists have to believe that free will is an illusion in order to fit in with the deterministic nature of science.

Like atheism, it is the default position; until such time as someone finds some evidence in support of the idea of free will then we should regard it as one more fanciful product of our cognitive biases rather than something to be taken seriously.

How do you manage to keep your face straight.
I for one would never have written the above, even as an atheist.
I cannot believe, Alan is actually giving you any time over this...
What a load of bleddy Rubbish... No one really believes free will does not exist.
In the dictionary it says...


free will
noun
noun: freewill
1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms:   volition, independence, self-determination, self-sufficiency, autonomy, spontaneity; More
antonyms:   under duress
adjective
adjective: freewill
1.
(especially of a donation) voluntary.
"free-will offerings"
Free will exists...

It is in the dictionary....

It does exist and you are having  a laugh at Alan's expense...
But the real joke is on you...

I've come to the conclusion that free will can't possibly exist. No-one could choose to miss the point by this astronomical distance.

ht

[wigginhall]

One of the problems is the conscious agent.   Where is it?  What is it?  People who support free will tend to just say, it's me, here I am, choosing freely to do something.   But that doesn't really demonstrate it.   

Same with the soul, which I suppose AB is connecting with free will.   Show it to me.

[Alien]

...

My wife saw a bathroom mirror in the reduced items corner of a local DIY shed, we needed a replacement, I took it upstairs with my drill, plugs, screwdriver and level etc.

Unbelievable when I offered it up to check size distance between where the fixings would have to go, you could have knocked me down with a feather, it was millimetre perfect into the same plug holes of the some twenty year old preceding mirror, now I took that logically as a several million to one chance, how would you have translated that?

I would be interested in any answer you may like to give.

ippy

Mass produced mirrors get made in a limited number of sizes?

[Leonard James]

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.

And my free will lets me decide which of my past experiences to choose. At some point in evolution, the option to choose between alternative actions must have given the organism a survival advantage. When and in what species, I don't know ... but it is obvious to me that it happened.

I'm afraid we are never going to agree about this, Rhi!

[Rhiannon]

I don't understand why you reject the science on this, Len. It's quite odd that I'm arguing as a theist with an atheist against what is usually a theist position.