Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3874589 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1275 on: June 18, 2015, 01:53:08 PM »
 
How about this - Jesus: why has thou forsaken me?   God: I can't remember.

Well the whole rainbow thing to remind god not to kill everyone is one big knot in a big gay hankie

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1276 on: June 18, 2015, 02:10:06 PM »
A friend of mine says, if God is omniscient and so on, why the f didn't he tell us to wash our hands?  Think of all the millions of people who would have been spared illness, including women in childbirth dying of infection.   But I suppose this then becomes bizarre - why didn't Jesus tell us about smartphones?

God created the bacteria. He didn't create Dettol.

We could have had 11 commandments, number 11, wash your hands before meals, after toilet, and before surgery.

Sorry but that reminded me of that scratchy council loo roll with 'now wash your hands' printed on every sheet that was around in the 70's.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1277 on: June 18, 2015, 03:08:06 PM »
I'm not sure what the 'official' reply would be to these objections.   If God/Jesus is omniscient/omnipotent, why didn't he ...   I suppose it's partly to allow human freedom - much better not to wash your hands, and die in agony of some infection, isn't it, then you can die happy that you chose not to wash your hands.  I suppose another point might be that humans develop at their own speed - but hang on, then what's the point of God?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1278 on: June 18, 2015, 03:36:14 PM »

The same way a person might 'want' to believe in God, and sets about 'searching' for God. People might want to believe in God and after life for all sorts of fairly obvious reasons; likewise people like to believe in free will because it is flattering, as if we are not products of nature, but something independent of it.

You don't want to believe in a God when in all truth there could not be anything after life if there isn't one and being dead means being dead no existence like before birth...

You boxed clever no giving any obvious reasons because there isn't any  that comes to your mind, is there?

Believing in God for honest people is about truth. And if you have not grasped by now that people carry on believing because they have that truth then you really are clutching at none existent straws for an argument...

Nah, the post you made is completely senseless and irresponsible if you have NO obvious reasons just a statement without evidence.

Your free will allowed you to form an opinion but your brain never allowed you to think it through before you wrote it down.
Why is that? Could it be your free will choice to think and do as you say?

I don't see any argument in there Sass; no substantive evidence or insight.  Granted, it feels as if we have free will, for sure.  And if you want to call our ability to sometimes make choices that are out of character for us free-will, then fine, but that is only running with a rather trivial understanding of the argument. 

The deeper philosphical point is about accepting what we have come to understand through research over the last three hundred years - that by and large most natural law is deterministic - a ball thrown in the air almost always comes back down for instance; our brains are organic decision making structures that must operate according to the same natural laws of which they are born.  All this implies that the choices we make are the result of the natural functioning of rival neural networks, and therefore in effect any decision we make is in fact predictable in advance, in principle. We cannot 'override' the functioning of our brain, because we are our brain; so my position is simply that of someone who accepts the science and extrapolates meaning from that.  To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1279 on: June 18, 2015, 03:42:57 PM »

Why are you arguing now? Something gives you a reason for engaging in this debate. If you stole to prove your free will to us it would be because for some reason your need to be able to do that over-rode your morality on stealing. That reason could be a genetic predisposition to always win or a need to be right learned at school or any number of combinations of events and ideas.
Just quoting a logical reason for doing something does not prove anything.  At any one time there are hundreds of choices I could make, all of which have a logical reason, but I have the freedom to choose which one to invoke.

You're still just arguing from how it feels though.  It feels free, to be sure, but what does that count for in any serious discussion ? Feelings are not good science. That's how science has learned to make progress, by eliminating subjective experience, we approach closer to some sort of objective truth, if such a thing could exist. If it feels free, it is just because the constraints and the detailed workings of mind are mostly below the level of our conscious awareness.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:48:25 PM by torridon »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1280 on: June 18, 2015, 03:58:34 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses? 
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Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1281 on: June 18, 2015, 04:03:35 PM »

The same way a person might 'want' to believe in God, and sets about 'searching' for God. People might want to believe in God and after life for all sorts of fairly obvious reasons; likewise people like to believe in free will because it is flattering, as if we are not products of nature, but something independent of it.

You don't want to believe in a God when in all truth there could not be anything after life if there isn't one and being dead means being dead no existence like before birth...

You boxed clever no giving any obvious reasons because there isn't any  that comes to your mind, is there?

Believing in God for honest people is about truth. And if you have not grasped by now that people carry on believing because they have that truth then you really are clutching at none existent straws for an argument...

Nah, the post you made is completely senseless and irresponsible if you have NO obvious reasons just a statement without evidence.

Your free will allowed you to form an opinion but your brain never allowed you to think it through before you wrote it down.
Why is that? Could it be your free will choice to think and do as you say?

I don't see any argument in there Sass; no substantive evidence or insight.  Granted, it feels as if we have free will, for sure.  And if you want to call our ability to sometimes make choices that are out of character for us free-will, then fine, but that is only running with a rather trivial understanding of the argument. 

The deeper philosphical point is about accepting what we have come to understand through research over the last three hundred years - that by and large most natural law is deterministic - a ball thrown in the air almost always comes back down for instance; our brains are organic decision making structures that must operate according to the same natural laws of which they are born.  All this implies that the choices we make are the result of the natural functioning of rival neural networks, and therefore in effect any decision we make is in fact predictable in advance, in principle. We cannot 'override' the functioning of our brain, because we are our brain; so my position is simply that of someone who accepts the science and extrapolates meaning from that.  To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.


I accept that nature is deterministic. Our body and brain follow certain biological laws. They are predictable. Circumstances are beyond our control.  Agreed.

However, the mind is something we don't yet understand.  You assume that the mind is a product of the brain and take it as part of the biological system. 

I think of the mind and consciousness as independent of the brain.  In this case, these  do not fit into the natural process that the brain and the body go through. The mind interacts with the body the way software interacts with hardware and makes it function. Consciousness is like the User of the system. 

I would even go so far as to say that the mind/consciousness interact with matter in all situations and even guide evolution by creating what we call 'emergent properties' at various points.   

The 'mind over matter' phenomenon that we all know of, influence of elementary particles by conscious intent (QM), Wheeler's idea of consciousness participating in the creation of the universe....all these point towards mind and consciousness being independent of natural processes while influencing them routinely.


Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1282 on: June 18, 2015, 04:29:54 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1283 on: June 18, 2015, 04:52:35 PM »
If 'will' is the intension to act or not act then perhaps you (as consciousness) can become free from 'will' by inner stillness, where desires and other mental activities either cease or cease to have effect.  'Be still and know that I am Being'.
Becoming free from will by inner stillness still requires an act of conscious free will to initiate the stillness.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1284 on: June 18, 2015, 05:05:10 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)

Yes, I have often thought about this myself.   I don't choose what I want, or what interests me.  And of course, as one gets older, some things become more interesting and some less, and that also seems not wilful.  For example, I used to be keen on music, and now, much less so.   I didn't 'choose' to be keen on music, and I didn't choose to be less keen. 

It reminds me of one of Freud's sayings (which he borrowed actually), we are controlled by unknown and uncontrollable forces.   Well, I don't know about that, but it's interesting.   
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jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1285 on: June 18, 2015, 05:08:09 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)

That's interesting and thought provoking, Shaker.  When my kids were young I took them to some great holiday places, here and abroad, but one always sticks in my mind as the most valued.  It wasn't pleasant at the time, I had driven down to Southend to get the kids out of the house one November Sunday and it was raining hard.  The place was deserted and I stopped at one of the shelters along the front.  I sat in the shelter and the kids played around, in and out of the rain,  What could be more miserable you'd think and yet I often long to be back there - even though my grandchildren have kids of their own now! 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1286 on: June 18, 2015, 05:08:41 PM »
One of the problems is the conscious agent.   Where is it?  What is it?  People who support free will tend to just say, it's me, here I am, choosing freely to do something.   But that doesn't really demonstrate it.   

Same with the soul, which I suppose AB is connecting with free will.   Show it to me.
It shows itself through conscious awareness of what is going on in your brain.  Each atom within each brain cell is just acting like a cog in a big machine (see Leibniz's Mill argument below).  There can be no central awareness within these atoms and brain cells.  The collective activity of all the molecules and brain cells can only be percieved by something outside these cells - the human soul.

In Section 17 of the Monadology Leibniz presents
an argument that is concerned with the relationship between mentality and machines.  This passage is often referred to as Leibniz's “mill argument.”
It runs as follows:
Moreover, we must confess that perception, and what depends upon it, is inexplicable in terms of mechanical reasons, that is through shapes, size and motions. If we imagine that there is a machine whose structure makes it think, sense, and have perceptions, we could conceive it enlarged, keeping the same proportions, so that we could enter into it, as one enters a mill. Assuming that, when inspecting its interior, we will find only parts that push one another, and we will never find anything to explain a perception. And so, one should seek perception in the simple substance and not in the composite or in the machine.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1287 on: June 18, 2015, 05:25:10 PM »
The mill argument as far as it goes is only an argument for where it is not. It is quite good for that (though I think Searle' s Chinese Room works better) but it isn't an argument for where it is which is what you were asked for. All you used there was your good old argument by incredulity.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1288 on: June 18, 2015, 05:48:46 PM »
To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.
Free will certainly does not deny these sciences.  An act of free will is simply an event in your brain which has not been caused by previous events.  The event itself will generate consequences according to the laws of science.  Free will events interact with science, they do not override science.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1289 on: June 18, 2015, 05:51:32 PM »
To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.
Free will certainly does not deny these sciences.  An act of free will is simply an event in your brain which has not been caused by previous events.  The event itself will generate consequences according to the laws of science.  Free will events interact with science, they do not override science.

So there are innumerable uncaused causes.?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1290 on: June 18, 2015, 06:04:28 PM »
To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.
Free will certainly does not deny these sciences.  An act of free will is simply an event in your brain which has not been caused by previous events.  The event itself will generate consequences according to the laws of science.  Free will events interact with science, they do not override science.

So there are innumerable uncaused causes.?
The causes of free will events eminate from the conscious free spirit of the human soul.  They are not physical causes, but they have physical consequences.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1291 on: June 18, 2015, 06:05:56 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)

That's interesting and thought provoking, Shaker.  When my kids were young I took them to some great holiday places, here and abroad, but one always sticks in my mind as the most valued.  It wasn't pleasant at the time, I had driven down to Southend to get the kids out of the house one November Sunday and it was raining hard.  The place was deserted and I stopped at one of the shelters along the front.  I sat in the shelter and the kids played around, in and out of the rain,  What could be more miserable you'd think and yet I often long to be back there - even though my grandchildren have kids of their own now!

That sounds very much like mindfulness to me. I spent many a rainy day in Southend as a kid but a similar memory I have that sticks out is eating chips in the car in the rain on Anglesey.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1292 on: June 18, 2015, 06:08:11 PM »
To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.
Free will certainly does not deny these sciences.  An act of free will is simply an event in your brain which has not been caused by previous events.  The event itself will generate consequences according to the laws of science.  Free will events interact with science, they do not override science.

So there are innumerable uncaused causes.?
The causes of free will events eminate from the conscious free spirit of the human soul.  They are not physical causes, but they have physical consequences.

So if they aren't physical where do they happen?

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1293 on: June 18, 2015, 06:34:59 PM »
It's because we slow down in bad weather. Rather than think we have to do stuff we just stop.

I have similarly clear memories of lying in grass on warm days.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1294 on: June 18, 2015, 06:41:32 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)

Yes, I have often thought about this myself.   I don't choose what I want, or what interests me.  And of course, as one gets older, some things become more interesting and some less, and that also seems not wilful.  For example, I used to be keen on music, and now, much less so.   I didn't 'choose' to be keen on music, and I didn't choose to be less keen. 

It reminds me of one of Freud's sayings (which he borrowed actually), we are controlled by unknown and uncontrollable forces.   Well, I don't know about that, but it's interesting.

Yes, I didn't choose to lose my faith, or fall out of love. I don't choose to love feta cheese and garlic or the smell of garden pinks. I didn't choose to enjoy painting furniture and listening to folk music.

But I think having a narrative is important. I've made bad choices in the past so it pleases me to think I can make better ones now. I have no choice over random things that happen but I like feeling as though I have options over how I react to them. It's good to bear in mind that it's all just a story, because if it doesn't work I can just go for a rewrite.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1295 on: June 18, 2015, 07:04:21 PM »
It's because we slow down in bad weather. Rather than think we have to do stuff we just stop.
Ah, but there's no consensus on what constitutes "bad weather." I'm fairly notorious amongst those who know me for having what they consider to be an almost entirely inverted sense of what constitutes good and bad weather - I love autumn and winter, tolerate certain things about spring, have an intense dislike of summer at least if it's what the majority call a "good" summer which, to them, means long periods of warm, dry, cloudless sunshine. I detest hot weather with a detestation that I can't put into words and love cold or at the very least cool weather. In fact for my physiology broad sunshine in summer (though not in winter) - clear sun shining out of a cloudless blue sky - is oppressive and attacking, not the energising and health-giving joy that the majority seem to think it is. Summer is a thing to be endured and for the most part not enjoyed - enjoyment is for the rest of the year, autumn and winter especially - but living in England as I do, most of the time I can at least rely on the calming effect of at best mid-teens centigrade temperatures and a partially cloudy sky. A good day is a day of mixed and variable weather, especially if it involves some degree of cloud cover and, if possible, some rain - lucky for me that I live on the British Isles where this is the norm.

There are physiological reasons for this. It's a known thing by now that the amount and quality of natural daylight that a person receives has profound effects on the endocrine system, but not all people respond to it in the same way. The majority feel energised by long hours of daylight - in summer that means an early sunrise, late sunset - but others like me are so constituted that they work the other way around; too much sunlight is not only distracting, it's downright distressing. Some people it seems are intrinsically built for the short, dark days and the early nights and coming home to draw the curtains and put the telly on and pour a bottle of wine and to feel warm, cosy, snug and secure by 6:00pm (if that).

I don't know if I meet all the criteria for reverse SAD (yes, there is such a thing) in any clinical sense, but something of that sort is definitely at work. Absolutely no question whatever. In "normal" SAD - the sort that gets all the attention - people slow down in the winter months; they become lethargic, depressed, eat more, sleep more ... they become retarded, in the clinical sense of the word. People with reverse SAD go the other way; in the summer months, rather than suffering from depression, they tend on the whole to suffer from anxiety - to be nervous, anxious, jumpy, distracted, essentially to be over-stimulated by so much external activity which is a cause of too much, too long daylight, and start to feel at ease, comfortable again when that day arrives - in my experience there's always that one particular day, and it's always around sundown - when you notice that first little nibble, not a bite so much as a nip, of real chill in the air and you know that although it's not here yet, on the way, still to come, is the sight of the leaves starting to change colour and to shrivel and drop and for the rain to become more frequent 

This lady is the same as me and absolutely gets it:
Quote
... now autumn is with us, with winter just around the corner, and something tells me it's pay-back time. It has occurred to me more than once that I might have some sort of reverse Seasonal Affective Disorder. Usually people get SAD at precisely this time of year when the days get shorter and darker. With me, SAD hits when the days get longer and brighter, or when I see the sartorial equivalent of the first swallow of summer: 'The First Man in Unflattering Khaki Shorts'. Or maybe it's the first headline declaring the 'race is on' to get a 'bikini body'. Whatever the trigger, I know when summer is coming because suddenly I feel wrong. I don't make sense in the summer, everything is too hot, too hopeless, too bewildering, I always feel I'm half a beat behind the world playing an eternal game of catch-up. That's the deal with reverse-SADos: summer means standing on the outside, watching the world through a miseryfilter, all the time entertaining fantasies about all-room air-conditioning.

Now, though, things are very different - the world so beautiful it takes your breath away. Leaves falling from the trees, puddles as permanent fixtures, fresh chilly mornings, faceslapping breezes, lots of excuses to wear coats, boots, plum-red scarves; everything, in fact, a good old-fashioned girl like me could want from a season. There's no bullying, no pressure. (Whoever felt the 'race was on' to get a 'raincoat body'?) And, day or night, you can walk around without worrying that the heat is going to melt the nose straight off your face.

For me the SAD has lifted. I feel like I should jump into a phone box, do a bit of spinning, and leap out as Super-Babs! The woman with autumn superpowers. There would have to be a voiceover: 'The kryptonite that was summer all but destroyed our heroine. But somehow she survived Anti-Pale Man and his sidekick Fake-Tan Woman. And now she is back to wreak a terrible revenge!'

Not that I am vengeful. I don't have to be. In fact, with my new-found serenity, I pity all you Summer People. Once the sun abandons you, the Ambre Solaire congeals, your menfolk stop feeling a compulsion to barbecue, you really fall to pieces, don't you? Disintegrate big-time. It's all snuffles here, shivering there, hating the rain, grumbling about how early it gets dark, and getting up when it looks like 'the middle of the night', and moan, moan, boo hoo, for months on end. Meanwhile, people like me, people who've got our super-powers back, are in our element.

With our superb bad-weather immune systems, we shrug off colds, we don't mind the dark (more flattering), even the crashing rain is OK (very Wuthering Heights). Once more we know how to dress (the first casualty for the reverse-SADo is looking good), how to eat (carbs, glorious carbs), and what joie de vivre feels like. And, crucially, we know we're going to feel like that for months on end. Maybe that is the real difference between those who prefer the cold months to the hot. It's like the SADs can only do summer, but the reverse-SADs can (just about), get through summer, but we're really good at winter, spring and autumn, which is threequarters of the year. Which makes us multi-taskers - men and women for all seasons. And while I don't want to keep rubbing it in like so much stale sun-cream, quite possibly that teensyweensy bit more evolved.

http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2005/oct/30/features.magazine7

Sometimes - not always, but sometimes - it's a fantastic thing to live on a planet with 23.5 degrees of axial tilt  :)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1296 on: June 18, 2015, 07:06:55 PM »
Yes, I didn't choose to lose my faith, or fall out of love. I don't choose to love feta cheese and garlic or the smell of garden pinks. I didn't choose to enjoy painting furniture and listening to folk music.

But I think having a narrative is important. I've made bad choices in the past so it pleases me to think I can make better ones now. I have no choice over random things that happen but I like feeling as though I have options over how I react to them. It's good to bear in mind that it's all just a story, because if it doesn't work I can just go for a rewrite.

It's all just a ride, Rhi. More people should remember that more of the time. It's just a ride  :)

http://activistshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/DuY3uqm.gif

http://activistshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/DuY3uqm.gif
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1297 on: June 18, 2015, 07:09:57 PM »
I'm not even sure that free will feels particularly free, in any case.   What does 'feeling free' mean?   When I'm driving, I change gear, brake, steer, and so on, with hardly a moment's thought.   

Of course, I know that there are other choices, for example, I could drive the car into a wall instead, but is that what feeling free is like?  It sounds rather like a post hoc rationalization, well it was free, because I could have done something else. 

And there is still the problem of what is free.   I mean what is it that chooses?
Slightly tangential in a way, but ... I was reading recently a good deal of material on meaning - proximate meaning in the context of human life in particular - and encountered the unexceptionable statement that lives are given individual meaning and purpose by the individual things that human beings value. Sounds fine to me - as I say, unexceptionable, rather obvious even. Except that when I look into myself and examine the things that I value, I can't say that I choose to value them. There was no point in my life at which I made a free, conscious, deliberate choice to value what I do in fact value; these things seem to have arrived as it were unbidden. Uninvited, in fact. What I like, what I enjoy, what gives me pleasure and enjoyment and satisfaction, and their opposites - I didn't choose any of them. I don't feel free to choose what I value; I can of course pretend to value things that I don't actually value, but this is self-deception first and (possibly) deception of others secondarily.

The upshot of which is that lives are given meaning by the things we value, but we don't choose the things we value. Which is an interesting thought to play around with, I think  :)

On the money here, Shakes

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1298 on: June 18, 2015, 07:14:52 PM »
Blimey O'Reilly. Thanks  ???
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1299 on: June 18, 2015, 07:19:52 PM »
To insist that we have free will is in effect to deny virtually the entirety of biology, chemistry and physics; i prefer to value the knowledge we have accumulated rather than hide in denials.
Free will certainly does not deny these sciences.  An act of free will is simply an event in your brain which has not been caused by previous events.  The event itself will generate consequences according to the laws of science.  Free will events interact with science, they do not override science.

So there are innumerable uncaused causes.?
The causes of free will events eminate from the conscious free spirit of the human soul.  They are not physical causes, but they have physical consequences.

So if they aren't physical where do they happen?
The events themselves must be physical and will occur within the brain cells.  What triggers these events will be human free will.   It will be 'mind over matter' at a very small scale.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 07:26:18 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton