Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

s.
His words will never fail and will always do what it is sent to do.
Now that is something you cannot argue against and is not debatable...

Once again showing that your mind is not just closed, it is double-padlocked into the bargain.

What a sad little pretend world you live in, Sass.

[Shaker]

It's very easy to tell when you're talking rubbish  -  your lips move.

This is called writing, not speaking. If you can hear voices, see somebody urgently.

I think you should do some serious soil-searching

I do a lot of that already; it's called gardening.

[Alan Burns]

Your performance here is irrelevant as has been pointed out. You appear to have no real  speaking experience. If you want to suddenly claim that you with your god might convince Dickie in private then that seems either to claim that your god has had no one to speak to him directly for the last 60 years or that you have a special skill.

Given that I find you extraordinarily naive since you have been here, what is it you think you might have?

Faith

Ye, that characterises your postings on this forum.  Faith does not win debates.  To do well, to convince, to win someone over, you need reason, evidence, and a willingness to engage.  You have your own particular portfolio of beliefs; it is for you to justify those beliefs with reasoned arguments and compelling evidence.  All we seem to get from you is assertion and evasion.

Faith does much,much more than win debates.  It saves souls.
The type of compelling evidence you ask for does not exist.
What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.
Once you are open to this possibility, it is then up to you to take a step in faith through this door of possibility and discover the truth for yourself.

[Shaker]

Faith does much,much more than win debates.

It doesn't even win debates. Which debates here do you consider yourself to have won? Which debates by others elsewhere have been won by somebody simply playing the faith card?

It saves souls.

Presumably only if it's the right kind of faith, i.e. the one you agree with. ISIS acolytes are men of faith, remember.

The type of compelling evidence you ask for does not exist.

A revealing and gratifying admission. That will save a lot of us quite a lot of time.

What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.

On the whole, how successful in this endeavour do you consider yourself to have been?

[Alan Burns]

What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.

On the whole, how successful in this endeavour do you consider yourself to have been?

I have had at least one sceptic admitting that I have made him/her think about what I have said.  If I can succeed in making people think about how and why they came into existence, and what existence itself actually comprises of, it is a step in the right direction.

[floo]

Not that it applies to me, but a great many of them have.

Well, they didn't, did they, because they are atheists and always were, and have no concept of what "faith" really is.

Don't pretend to be an even bigger idiot.

I'm referring to the reams of people who are now atheists but who formerly adhered to a religious faith (Christian; Jewish; Muslim; Sikh; whatever it was) before they saw through it and it deserted them. Case in point: Leonard James.

I had a faith until I realised it didn't tick any of the logic boxes!

It is sad that a particular member of this forum doesn't appear to realise how idiotic most of their posts are. They pretend to have knowledge and intelligence us heathen don't, when in actual fact they are showing themselves up as so badly lacking in both those attributes!

[Shaker]

I have had at least one sceptic admitting that I have made him/her think about what I have said.

Thinking about is not the same as believing, is it?

If I can succeed in making people think about how and why they came into existence

I'd have thought that even the most minimally aware person knows the reason for their existence.

[Shaker]

Ba, as they say, zinga

[Alan Burns]

I'd have thought that even the most minimally aware person knows the reason for their existence.

I think you are confusing the word "reason" with the word "cause".

[torridon]

Your performance here is irrelevant as has been pointed out. You appear to have no real  speaking experience. If you want to suddenly claim that you with your god might convince Dickie in private then that seems either to claim that your god has had no one to speak to him directly for the last 60 years or that you have a special skill.

Given that I find you extraordinarily naive since you have been here, what is it you think you might have?

Faith

Ye, that characterises your postings on this forum.  Faith does not win debates.  To do well, to convince, to win someone over, you need reason, evidence, and a willingness to engage.  You have your own particular portfolio of beliefs; it is for you to justify those beliefs with reasoned arguments and compelling evidence.  All we seem to get from you is assertion and evasion.

Faith does much,much more than win debates.  It saves souls.
The type of compelling evidence you ask for does not exist.
What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.
Once you are open to this possibility, it is then up to you to take a step in faith through this door of possibility and discover the truth for yourself.

Faith doesn't win debates at all Alan. It doesn't save souls either, because souls don't exist as far as we know. If you want open people like me up to the possibility that there is a God then you are going to need reason and evidence.  Faith doesn't cut it with me, faith is immoral in my book, so I try to avoid it as far as possible. When you have some proper evidence for your beliefs, that is the time to sit up and take notice, all else is gratification or indulgence of some or other stripe.

[Spud]

Your performance here is irrelevant as has been pointed out. You appear to have no real  speaking experience. If you want to suddenly claim that you with your god might convince Dickie in private then that seems either to claim that your god has had no one to speak to him directly for the last 60 years or that you have a special skill.

Given that I find you extraordinarily naive since you have been here, what is it you think you might have?

Faith

Ye, that characterises your postings on this forum.  Faith does not win debates.  To do well, to convince, to win someone over, you need reason, evidence, and a willingness to engage.  You have your own particular portfolio of beliefs; it is for you to justify those beliefs with reasoned arguments and compelling evidence.  All we seem to get from you is assertion and evasion.

Faith does much,much more than win debates.  It saves souls.
The type of compelling evidence you ask for does not exist.
What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.
Once you are open to this possibility, it is then up to you to take a step in faith through this door of possibility and discover the truth for yourself.

Faith doesn't win debates at all Alan. It doesn't save souls either, because souls don't exist as far as we know. If you want open people like me up to the possibility that there is a God then you are going to need reason and evidence.  Faith doesn't cut it with me, faith is immoral in my book, so I try to avoid it as far as possible. When you have some proper evidence for your beliefs, that is the time to sit up and take notice, all else is gratification or indulgence of some or other stripe.

Alan's is a reasonable position. We couldn't have got here by chance, therefore there must be a Creator. Faith enables us to know that creator. He has revealed himself in the Bible.

[floo]

Spud it doesn't definitely follow that we must have had a creator, and certainly not the one depicted in the Bible!

[Nearly Sane]

Your performance here is irrelevant as has been pointed out. You appear to have no real  speaking experience. If you want to suddenly claim that you with your god might convince Dickie in private then that seems either to claim that your god has had no one to speak to him directly for the last 60 years or that you have a special skill.

Given that I find you extraordinarily naive since you have been here, what is it you think you might have?

Faith

Ye, that characterises your postings on this forum.  Faith does not win debates.  To do well, to convince, to win someone over, you need reason, evidence, and a willingness to engage.  You have your own particular portfolio of beliefs; it is for you to justify those beliefs with reasoned arguments and compelling evidence.  All we seem to get from you is assertion and evasion.

Faith does much,much more than win debates.  It saves souls.
The type of compelling evidence you ask for does not exist.
What I have tried to do is to open the door to the possibility that God exists, and that He made Himself known to us through Jesus.
Once you are open to this possibility, it is then up to you to take a step in faith through this door of possibility and discover the truth for yourself.

Faith doesn't win debates at all Alan. It doesn't save souls either, because souls don't exist as far as we know. If you want open people like me up to the possibility that there is a God then you are going to need reason and evidence.  Faith doesn't cut it with me, faith is immoral in my book, so I try to avoid it as far as possible. When you have some proper evidence for your beliefs, that is the time to sit up and take notice, all else is gratification or indulgence of some or other stripe.

Alan's is a reasonable position. We couldn't have got here by chance, therefore there must be a Creator. Faith enables us to know that creator. He has revealed himself in the Bible.

the logic creates either an infinite regress or special pleading, therefore is not 'reasonable' since it is logically flawed. It also as is formulated creates a false dichotomy.

[Alan Burns]

Faith doesn't win debates at all Alan. It doesn't save souls either, because souls don't exist as far as we know. If you want open people like me up to the possibility that there is a God then you are going to need reason and evidence.  Faith doesn't cut it with me, faith is immoral in my book, so I try to avoid it as far as possible. When you have some proper evidence for your beliefs, that is the time to sit up and take notice, all else is gratification or indulgence of some or other stripe.

I think we have agreed that there are aspects to our existence which at this time do not have an explanation, such as conscious self awareness.  Does it not require an act of faith to assume that conscious awareness can somehow arise out of the same sub atomic particles as we find in a lump of rock?  If you do have such faith in the ability of protons neutrons and electrons to generate awareness, then surely every bit of matter in the entire universe will have some form of locked up awareness trying to get out, pending some re arrangement of the atomic particles.  However the human concept of the soul makes much more sense, because the atomic particles then become the vehicle which is driven by the soul, and there is only one soul per vehicle.

[Spud]

the logic creates either an infinite regress or special pleading, therefore is not 'reasonable' since it is logically flawed. It also as is formulated creates a false dichotomy.

As an old lady once said to me, That's all very shorthand and straightforward, but what does it actually boil down to?

[Nearly Sane]

It's boiled down because it has been covered to a large extent before and it is only a few weeks since I went through something similar with yourself, which you then either missed or ignored.

If the position starts that something like 'us' needs some form of intelligent cause because of complexity then that cause would need a cause would need a cause and so on ad infinitum, hence the infinite  regress.

If you then posit that there is a thing of such complexity that somehow does not need a cause it then becomes special pleading and once posited cannot be used in relation to us as an argument since you do not argue it consistently.

It was a false dichotomy as you presented it because the opposite of being here by chance is not that  of created by a creator, it is not here by chance.

I note also that in ruling out the idea of being herebychanceyou have made no attempt definition of the terms you mean and have then simply dismissed it by assertion.

[SusanDoris]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

[ippy]

Faith doesn't win debates at all Alan. It doesn't save souls either, because souls don't exist as far as we know. If you want open people like me up to the possibility that there is a God then you are going to need reason and evidence.  Faith doesn't cut it with me, faith is immoral in my book, so I try to avoid it as far as possible. When you have some proper evidence for your beliefs, that is the time to sit up and take notice, all else is gratification or indulgence of some or other stripe.

I think we have agreed that there are aspects to our existence which at this time do not have an explanation, such as conscious self awareness.  Does it not require an act of faith to assume that conscious awareness can somehow arise out of the same sub atomic particles as we find in a lump of rock?  If you do have such faith in the ability of protons neutrons and electrons to generate awareness, then surely every bit of matter in the entire universe will have some form of locked up awareness trying to get out, pending some re arrangement of the atomic particles.  However the human concept of the soul makes much more sense, because the atomic particles then become the vehicle which is driven by the soul, and there is only one soul per vehicle.

It's so wonderful that we've got people like you Alan to explain all of these things to us mere mortals.

Only thing is, where you have written, "there is only one soul per vehicle", where did you get that from? How do you know it?

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

.


I feel much greater sadness for the millions of children trapped in poverty, who are dying as a result.  Being "trapped" in belief  (a silly comment, by the way)  doesn't affect your stomach.  Priorities!!

[Nearly Sane]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

People are not really like that. Being a theist dies nit mean you are doing no critical of free thinking, just as being an atheist does not guarantee you are doing any. This is redolent of the Brights nonsense.

[Nearly Sane]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

ing as a result.  You don't get food for your beliefs, however"trapped;"  a silly comment , y the way.  Priorities!!

I feel much greater sadness for the millions of children trapped in poverty, who are dying as a result.  Being "trapped" in belief  (a silly comment, by the way)  doesn't affect your stomach.  Priorities!!

And there is no indication in Susan's post that she might not very well also feel sympathy with starving kids of whatever beliefs. So your point is specious.

[BashfulAnthony]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

ing as a result.  You don't get food for your beliefs, however"trapped;"  a silly comment , y the way.  Priorities!!

I feel much greater sadness for the millions of children trapped in poverty, who are dying as a result.  Being "trapped" in belief  (a silly comment, by the way)  doesn't affect your stomach.  Priorities!!

And there is no indication in Susan's post that she might not very well also feel sympathy with starving kids of whatever beliefs. So your point is specious.

I said, "priorities."  If she thinks poverty is a priority over "belief," let her say so for herself.  So many spokes-people on here!

[Nearly Sane]

What makes me sad is the thought of the many millions of children trapped in belief without access to real critical and free thinking.

(P.S. Thank you, savillerow!)

ing as a result.  You don't get food for your beliefs, however"trapped;"  a silly comment , y the way.  Priorities!!

I feel much greater sadness for the millions of children trapped in poverty, who are dying as a result.  Being "trapped" in belief  (a silly comment, by the way)  doesn't affect your stomach.  Priorities!!

And there is no indication in Susan's post that she might not very well also feel sympathy with starving kids of whatever beliefs. So your point is specious.

I said, "priorities."  If she thinks poverty is a priority over "belief," let her say so for herself.  So many spokes-people on here!

She has not quantified anything about it. Unless every time anyone ever expresses a dislike of something, you expect them to say and this is 913th in my priorities and why, it's a complete irrelevance. Oh I should note that you seem to by your approach be agreeing with her that it is a thing to be sad about.

[wigginhall]

Alan's phrase, one soul per vehicle, is pretty dandy.  It sounds like a regulation on London Transport, move along please, mind the gap, only one soul per seat, please.  Dogs must be carried.

[Shaker]

Alan's is a reasonable position.

No it isn't. In fact it could hardly be more unreasonable.

We couldn't have got here by chance, therefore there must be a Creator.

We didn't get here by chance; we got here by natural selection, which is part-chance, part deterministic.

Faith enables us to know that creator. He has revealed himself in the Bible.

Am I to assume you believe this true of the Koran also?