Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

Some things about human beings is not logical.

What matters to me, is that people are able to live rich and full lives and enjoy themselves.

If that takes a certain amount of irationality and being illogical, so be it! 😉


We don't all want to be "Mr Spock"  but it takes all sorts to " live long, and prosper"

A little bit of barminess is good for you 😉😀

I'm sure if I met RD he'd have his own little bit of barminess, just not involving God 😃

No one is asking people to be Spock or logical all the time, but if you are trying to present a logical case as to an extent Alan has been doing, suddenly saying in the middle of it that logic does not apply means you have removed the point from everything you have been saying

I think I would have difficulty trying to prove any one religion as correct in all its beliefs.

Probably the best I could do is admit I didn't know, point out how far we have come in our understanding of quantum mechanics in the last 100 years and what that could mean of our understanding of science and the universe and point out we still have a long way to go in understanding our universe.

Perhaps if we keep up the science and keep looking, the next 100 years might be even more staggering.

Who knows what we might find? And what might seem impossible now, just might not be in the future.

All we can do is keep looking and figuring, I guess.

😃

You are confused,this isn't about science or proving religious beliefs, it's about someone saying it does not matter if something is logical in the middle of an attempted logical discussion.

[Alan Burns]

So why do find it incredible for our human brain to have developed from natural evolution but don't find it at all incredible that this entity you call God - that you say created that brain - should come from absolute zilch!

God did not come from anywhere, God simply exists.  I know our brains find this difficult, but we have to come to terms with the fact that something has to exist and that something is God.

But if you're happy with such an explanation for God, how on earth do you find the natural explanation so incredible!  If God need not come from anywhere, why cannot the Universe have come from the same place?

Because the universe had a beginning.

Something which has a beginning does not come from nothing.  There has to be something outside the universe which caused the beginning, and for anything to exist at all, there has to be something at the source of everything which always exists, and that is God.

[Alan Burns]

God, being so much greater than humans, must surely be far more complex ... but you're perfectly happy to accept that he/she/it didn't have to be created or 'guided' by something even more complex!

Our human brains are not capable of understanding what God is.  The old testament gives a profound insight with God's answer to Moses's query about Him: "I am who am".
God is simpy existence, not just in our universe's dimensions of time an space, but in everything.  God is that which exists, in every moment of time, in every dimension, in every universe, totally beyond human understanding, which is why He had to become one of us to make Himself known.

Ah, so you are actually a closet pantheist 

I think I was getting a bit carried away and missed out the important bit.  God is the original existence which brought other things into existence, such as our visible universe.  This universe was brought into existence by God, but the material universe we see is not God, it is His creation.

See, this is some of the compartmentalised bullshit that needs pointing out to you and dealing with. You can't make an argument for ID from complexity while you simultaneously believe that god brought the universe into existence. By believing the latter, you remove all contrast between complex and simple things, leaving your complexity argument redundant and reduced to a case of special pleading. You're having your cake and eating it. Pick one or the other - either god created all or only the complex.

God creates complexity in the same way that humans do - by manipulative interaction with nature using the power of free will.

[Nearly Sane]

Some things about human beings is not logical.

What matters to me, is that people are able to live rich and full lives and enjoy themselves.

If that takes a certain amount of irationality and being illogical, so be it! 😉


We don't all want to be "Mr Spock"  but it takes all sorts to " live long, and prosper"

A little bit of barminess is good for you 😉😀

I'm sure if I met RD he'd have his own little bit of barminess, just not involving God 😃

No one is asking people to be Spock or logical all the time, but if you are trying to present a logical case as to an extent Alan has been doing, suddenly saying in the middle of it that logic does not apply means you have removed the point from everything you have been saying

I think I would have difficulty trying to prove any one religion as correct in all its beliefs.

Probably the best I could do is admit I didn't know, point out how far we have come in our understanding of quantum mechanics in the last 100 years and what that could mean of our understanding of science and the universe and point out we still have a long way to go in understanding our universe.

Perhaps if we keep up the science and keep looking, the next 100 years might be even more staggering.

Who knows what we might find? And what might seem impossible now, just might not be in the future.

All we can do is keep looking and figuring, I guess.

😃

You are confused,this isn't about science or proving religious beliefs, it's about someone saying it does not matter if something is logical in the middle of an attempted logical discussion.

No not confused, just understand "faith " is not logical that's why it's er, faith.

Faith is belief regardless of logic

No, I understand that too. But if it is held then logical discussion is impossible. It means that any of Alan' s attempts at using logic are undermined by his own statement.

[Alan Burns]

In your opinion. What created the deity? Before you say it was always there, consider that it is just as credible to suggest the elements which brought the universe into being were always there!

So what are the elements which brought the universe into being, and what brought these elements into being? (don't say it is turtles all the way down  )

[torridon]

It's turtles all the way down 

[jjohnjil]

So why do find it incredible for our human brain to have developed from natural evolution but don't find it at all incredible that this entity you call God - that you say created that brain - should come from absolute zilch!

God did not come from anywhere, God simply exists.  I know our brains find this difficult, but we have to come to terms with the fact that something has to exist and that something is God.

But if you're happy with such an explanation for God, how on earth do you find the natural explanation so incredible!  If God need not come from anywhere, why cannot the Universe have come from the same place?

Because the universe had a beginning.

Something which has a beginning does not come from nothing.  There has to be something outside the universe which caused the beginning, and for anything to exist at all, there has to be something at the source of everything which always exists, and that is God.

But how do you know the Universe had a beginning and God didn't?  That's simply an assertion, Akan.

In my opinion, the Universe has always been there and God is simply a construct of primitive Man.

What makes my opinion wrong and your assetion right?

[Gordon]

Because the universe had a beginning.

Something which has a beginning does not come from nothing.  There has to be something outside the universe which caused the beginning, and for anything to exist at all, there has to be something at the source of everything which always exists, and that is God.

If you think, as I suspect you do, that your God is a handy way of avoiding the infinite regress problem then how do you know that the Christian God didn't itself have prior causes such as a series of even greater preceding and creator gods prior to your personally preferred choice of god, where an earlier god than the Christian version is the 'real' first mover?

Even if you go down the 'God is eternal' route then you'll need to explain why other things (like universes) can't also be 'eternal', and do so without your usual descent into a pot pourri of fallacies. 

[ippy]

God, being so much greater than humans, must surely be far more complex ... but you're perfectly happy to accept that he/she/it didn't have to be created or 'guided' by something even more complex!

Our human brains are not capable of understanding what God is.  The old testament gives a profound insight with God's answer to Moses's query about Him: "I am who am".
God is simpy existence, not just in our universe's dimensions of time an space, but in everything.  God is that which exists, in every moment of time, in every dimension, in every universe, totally beyond human understanding, which is why He had to become one of us to make Himself known.

Ah, so you are actually a closet pantheist 

I think I was getting a bit carried away and missed out the important bit.  God is the original existence which brought other things into existence, such as our visible universe.  This universe was brought into existence by God, but the material universe we see is not God, it is His creation.

See, this is some of the compartmentalised bullshit that needs pointing out to you and dealing with. You can't make an argument for ID from complexity while you simultaneously believe that god brought the universe into existence. By believing the latter, you remove all contrast between complex and simple things, leaving your complexity argument redundant and reduced to a case of special pleading. You're having your cake and eating it. Pick one or the other - either god created all or only the complex.

God creates complexity in the same way that humans do - by manipulative interaction with nature using the power of free will.

You say Alan:

"God creates complexity in the same way that humans do - by manipulative interaction with nature using the power of free will".

Perhaps you could tell me, as well all of us on this forum, where did you get this information and how, exactly how was it conveyed to you?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

If you think, as I suspect you do, that your God is a handy way of avoiding the infinite regress problem then how do you know that the Christian God didn't itself have prior causes such as a series of even greater preceding and creator gods prior to your personally preferred choice of god, where an earlier god than the Christian version is the 'real' first mover?

No one can answer this - it is where faith steps in

Even if you go down the 'God is eternal' route then you'll need to explain why other things (like universes) can't also be 'eternal', and do so without your usual descent into a pot pourri of fallacies.

The only universe we know is the one we are in, and it would seem that it began with a big bang and will eventually burn out leaving nothing but radiation.  I have no idea what will happen then, and there will be no one here to find out.  But my brain (and presumably yours) can't really come to terms with either the option of infinite oblivion or the option of infinite existence.  Hopefully all will come clear in the next life.

[Andy]

God, being so much greater than humans, must surely be far more complex ... but you're perfectly happy to accept that he/she/it didn't have to be created or 'guided' by something even more complex!

Our human brains are not capable of understanding what God is.  The old testament gives a profound insight with God's answer to Moses's query about Him: "I am who am".
God is simpy existence, not just in our universe's dimensions of time an space, but in everything.  God is that which exists, in every moment of time, in every dimension, in every universe, totally beyond human understanding, which is why He had to become one of us to make Himself known.

Ah, so you are actually a closet pantheist 

I think I was getting a bit carried away and missed out the important bit.  God is the original existence which brought other things into existence, such as our visible universe.  This universe was brought into existence by God, but the material universe we see is not God, it is His creation.

See, this is some of the compartmentalised bullshit that needs pointing out to you and dealing with. You can't make an argument for ID from complexity while you simultaneously believe that god brought the universe into existence. By believing the latter, you remove all contrast between complex and simple things, leaving your complexity argument redundant and reduced to a case of special pleading. You're having your cake and eating it. Pick one or the other - either god created all or only the complex.

God creates complexity in the same way that humans do - by manipulative interaction with nature using the power of free will.

Your assertion is a non sequitur to the point I was making.

[Rhiannon]

God, being so much greater than humans, must surely be far more complex ... but you're perfectly happy to accept that he/she/it didn't have to be created or 'guided' by something even more complex!

Our human brains are not capable of understanding what God is.  The old testament gives a profound insight with God's answer to Moses's query about Him: "I am who am".
God is simpy existence, not just in our universe's dimensions of time an space, but in everything.  God is that which exists, in every moment of time, in every dimension, in every universe, totally beyond human understanding, which is why He had to become one of us to make Himself known.

Ah, so you are actually a closet pantheist 

I think I was getting a bit carried away and missed out the important bit.  God is the original existence which brought other things into existence, such as our visible universe.  This universe was brought into existence by God, but the material universe we see is not God, it is His creation.

See, this is some of the compartmentalised bullshit that needs pointing out to you and dealing with. You can't make an argument for ID from complexity while you simultaneously believe that god brought the universe into existence. By believing the latter, you remove all contrast between complex and simple things, leaving your complexity argument redundant and reduced to a case of special pleading. You're having your cake and eating it. Pick one or the other - either god created all or only the complex.

God creates complexity in the same way that humans do - by manipulative interaction with nature using the power of free will.

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

[Shaker]

Alan, old bean: remember the First Law of Holes

[Alan Burns]

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

God generally allows nature to take its course according to its rules.
But I am certain that He did not just light the blue touchpaper of the Big Bang and stand back.  The evidence for His intelligent intervention is all around us, and within us.  For a much more detailed appraisal of this I would highly reccommend reading "Miracles" by CS Lewis.  I had already formulated these ideas before I read his book, but he seems to confirm much of what I had already thought out.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You make it up as you go along, Alan!

No. What Alan says about Christianity is pretty standard.

[jjohnjil]

You make it up as you go along, Alan!

No. What Alan says about Christianity is pretty standard.

Exactly!  A complete dog's bollocks!

[Rhiannon]

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

God generally allows nature to take its course according to its rules.
But I am certain that He did not just light the blue touchpaper of the Big Bang and stand back.  The evidence for His intelligent intervention is all around us, and within us.  For a much more detailed appraisal of this I would highly reccommend reading "Miracles" by CS Lewis.  I had already formulated these ideas before I read his book, but he seems to confirm much of what I had already thought out.

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

God generally allows nature to take its course according to its rules.
But I am certain that He did not just light the blue touchpaper of the Big Bang and stand back.  The evidence for His intelligent intervention is all around us, and within us.  For a much more detailed appraisal of this I would highly reccommend reading "Miracles" by CS Lewis.  I had already formulated these ideas before I read his book, but he seems to confirm much of what I had already thought out.

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

If suffering is but a stage then you are making too much of it.

[Shaker]

You make it up as you go along, Alan!

No. What Alan says about Christianity is pretty standard.

Exactly!  A complete dog's bollocks!

Errrr, no. The dog's bollocks refers to something good or admirable - if you're talking about Alan's posts I think you meant a complete dog's dinner 

[ippy]

Reading Alan's and Woo's mailings must give a psychological boost when they remind most of us of how normal  we must be.

ippy

[jjohnjil]

You make it up as you go along, Alan!

No. What Alan says about Christianity is pretty standard.

Exactly!  A complete dog's bollocks!

Errrr, no. The dog's bollocks refers to something good or admirable - if you're talking about Alan's posts I think you meant a complete dog's dinner 

No, Shaker, Alan's fantastic explanation has won me over with its logical common sense!  Really!

[Shaker]

Hm 

[wigginhall]

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

God generally allows nature to take its course according to its rules.
But I am certain that He did not just light the blue touchpaper of the Big Bang and stand back.  The evidence for His intelligent intervention is all around us, and within us.  For a much more detailed appraisal of this I would highly reccommend reading "Miracles" by CS Lewis.  I had already formulated these ideas before I read his book, but he seems to confirm much of what I had already thought out.

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever? 

[jjohnjil]

Hm 

Honest, Guv!

[Leonard James]

So what are the elements which brought the universe into being, and what brought these elements into being? (don't say it is turtles all the way down  )

Nobody knows, though millions believe they do, simply because they have swallowed what somebody else has told them.