Searching for GOD...

[floo]

Plenty of you nutters claim to be in direct contact with their god.. or is that just the sass?

Either way, let them know  I'm up for a chat if they are... they know where I live..

I am sure the deity won't be able to resist the invitation and will pop round, especially if you have a bottle of the finest single malt whisky available!

[Leonard James]

Plenty of you nutters claim to be in direct contact with their god.. or is that just the sass?

Either way, let them know  I'm up for a chat if they are... they know where I live..

I am sure the deity won't be able to resist the invitation and will pop round, especially if you have a bottle of the finest single malt whisky available!

I fear he is far too busy desperately trying to hang on to his control of the minds he has already ensnared. He's fighting a losing battle, I'm happy to say! 

[Sassy]

I once spoke to a woman who spent a lot of time volunteering to look after children with very serious disabilities. She used to sing praise songs with them and although they couldn't communicate she told me she was certain that they were conscious of God's love for them.

But according to Alan, they weren't.

The deity loved them so much it allowed them to have serious disabilities!

Well I don't know what this woman believed. She may be in the 'don't know' camp like Welby or the 'God does what he can but can't intervene' slightly liberal camp.

But Alan seems to think disabilities have been designed. He certainly believes in a god powerful enough to switch them off.

Whereas most believers know the work of Satan is at hand in those born with disabilities.
As sure as we are of that, we are also as sure than when the Lord Jesus returns they will be raised to be the same as everyone else.

As a mother of a disabled daughter I can speak first hand about the impact of disabilities on a family. My daughter believes in Jesus and she knows he is the son of God. When in difficulties I have heard her ask God for help. A childs mind who asks Gods help whom she cannot see but nonetheless believes he hears her and helps her.

I believe aborted babies and those we lose through miscarriage will be there in that life.

What I also believe is all harmful words and thoughts will be a thing of the past.

How does talking about disabilities help in searching for God///?

A cruel world, but if perfect then Satan would be going by himself for eternity in the Lake of Fire...

[Sassy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

Says someone who never had any sense of reasoning when it comes to Christianity... because he knows absolutely nothing about it, other than maybe the names of the key figures, Jesus and God...

[Sassy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

You mean he was PLEASANT at some stage of posting...

SHOW ME WHERE! I MISSED IT... 

[Sassy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

He doesn't know... he probably copied from another site and has to go back now and see what they were talking about... 

[floo]

I once spoke to a woman who spent a lot of time volunteering to look after children with very serious disabilities. She used to sing praise songs with them and although they couldn't communicate she told me she was certain that they were conscious of God's love for them.

But according to Alan, they weren't.

The deity loved them so much it allowed them to have serious disabilities!

Well I don't know what this woman believed. She may be in the 'don't know' camp like Welby or the 'God does what he can but can't intervene' slightly liberal camp.

But Alan seems to think disabilities have been designed. He certainly believes in a god powerful enough to switch them off.

Whereas most believers know the work of Satan is at hand in those born with disabilities.
As sure as we are of that, we are also as sure than when the Lord Jesus returns they will be raised to be the same as everyone else.

As a mother of a disabled daughter I can speak first hand about the impact of disabilities on a family. My daughter believes in Jesus and she knows he is the son of God. When in difficulties I have heard her ask God for help. A childs mind who asks Gods help whom she cannot see but nonetheless believes he hears her and helps her.

I believe aborted babies and those we lose through miscarriage will be there in that life.

What I also believe is all harmful words and thoughts will be a thing of the past.

How does talking about disabilities help in searching for God///?

A cruel world, but if perfect then Satan would be going by himself for eternity in the Lake of Fire...

What a sick comment even for you Sass. Disabilities have natural causes nothing to do with the mythical Satan!

[Leonard James]

It's a children's world (and for many adults, too) in which their are humans, God and Satan. God is responsible for all the good things and Satan for all the bad things. God controls some of us and Satan controls the rest.

Couldn't be easier, could it? 

[Leonard James]

It's a children's world (and for many adults, too) in which there are humans, God and Satan. God is responsible for all the good things and Satan for all the bad things. God controls some of us and Satan controls the rest.

Couldn't be easier, could it? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's a children's world (and for many adults, too) in which there are humans, God and Satan. God is responsible for all the good things and Satan for all the bad things. God controls some of us and Satan controls the rest.

Couldn't be easier, could it? 

I see you are quoting yourself Len. Congratulations on your promotion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can see God in the faces and actions of others sometimes.

All that means, is that you recognise the outward behavioural signs of people with similar beliefs and values. I feel no need to add some spooky overlay on top of that like you clearly do although I accept that for many, this is an enriching way of adding an extra layer of interpretive meaning to their experience of life.

I guess also that for some, this is more than just a habit of mind, it may be an indicator of profound cognitive bias. Consider this : sometimes if we stare at a patterned carpet and let our eyes defocus and relax, sooner or later we see a face in the carpet.  This is because we are so tuned up to recognise human faces that we end up sometimes seeing them where they aren't.  Cognitive bias.  I think some people see God everywhere because of a similar subliminal mechanism of a highly God-oriented mind. For me, though, I accept that there aren't people really trapped inside my carpet, ie I recognise my own bias and discount it through the application of broader logic.

God as stripey carpet........whatever next?
Have you tested your own theory?
Did you spot God in the faces and actions of others.
If not how do you know the analogy is valid?
How do you know there is not a mechanism for filtering out God?
If you did see God what was your reaction?
Also I'm not sure about analogising these little instances of perceptive ephemera with the broad area and question of whether there is a supreme reality and the question ''what's it all about''.
But I've said enough and there is bound to be that little atheists perceptive quirk of alighting on one point out of seven and it being the most trivial.

I think it a mistake to dismiss these 'ephemera' as trivialities, they tell us something about how minds work, something subtle and something profound, they tell us about how belief and expectation can inform our perception of the world around us. I've long been baffled by the what seem to me to be extraordinary claims of believers, that god is real, that they see god everywhere, and this to me suggests a complex phenomenon requiring many explanations and this insight, that our 'preprogramming' for facial recognition results in us actually seeing faces, not just imagining them, is probably the closest I will ever get to understanding the claims of visceral 'experience' of God. 

Here is one of my favourite illusions, the shadowed checkerboard illusion :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_shadow_illusion#/media/File:Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG

The squares A and B are actually the same colour, but we all experience them as different shades of grey. This shows how our expectations and beliefs inform our perception. We actually see what we believe or expect to be true, even if it evidently false.

You answered a query concerning the relevance of making simple empirical perception quirks analogous with religious faith and experience by just suggesting more simple empirical perception quirks!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can see God in the faces and actions of others sometimes.

All that means, is that you recognise the outward behavioural signs of people with similar beliefs and values. I feel no need to add some spooky overlay on top of that like you clearly do although I accept that for many, this is an enriching way of adding an extra layer of interpretive meaning to their experience of life.

I guess also that for some, this is more than just a habit of mind, it may be an indicator of profound cognitive bias. Consider this : sometimes if we stare at a patterned carpet and let our eyes defocus and relax, sooner or later we see a face in the carpet.  This is because we are so tuned up to recognise human faces that we end up sometimes seeing them where they aren't.  Cognitive bias.  I think some people see God everywhere because of a similar subliminal mechanism of a highly God-oriented mind. For me, though, I accept that there aren't people really trapped inside my carpet, ie I recognise my own bias and discount it through the application of broader logic.

God as stripey carpet........whatever next?
Have you tested your own theory?
Did you spot God in the faces and actions of others.
If not how do you know the analogy is valid?
How do you know there is not a mechanism for filtering out God?
If you did see God what was your reaction?
Also I'm not sure about analogising these little instances of perceptive ephemera with the broad area and question of whether there is a supreme reality and the question ''what's it all about''.
But I've said enough and there is bound to be that little atheists perceptive quirk of alighting on one point out of seven and it being the most trivial.

I think it a mistake to dismiss these 'ephemera' as trivialities, they tell us something about how minds work, something subtle and something profound, they tell us about how belief and expectation can inform our perception of the world around us. I've long been baffled by the what seem to me to be extraordinary claims of believers, that god is real, that they see god everywhere, and this to me suggests a complex phenomenon requiring many explanations and this insight, that our 'preprogramming' for facial recognition results in us actually seeing faces, not just imagining them, is probably the closest I will ever get to understanding the claims of visceral 'experience' of God. 

Here is one of my favourite illusions, the shadowed checkerboard illusion :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_shadow_illusion#/media/File:Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG

The squares A and B are actually the same colour, but we all experience them as different shades of grey. This shows how our expectations and beliefs inform our perception. We actually see what we believe or expect to be true, even if it evidently false.

I think another issue is the different understanding of 'God'.  I have thought about this a lot, and there seem to be at least five which exist.   1.  Some Christians seem to have a sense of a separate being, super-powerful, who may or may not intervene.   So this is like Superman.  2.  Then in classical theism, there is the idea that God is being itself.  This is rather obscure, but it is not 'personalistic'.  3.  Then there are ideas like Brahman, which is a kind of unity behind all the diversity.  4.  Somehow connected with this is the idea of the non-dual, in some Eastern religions, where the separateness between you and everything else, falls away.  5.  Then some people think in terms of local gods, as in the tree or the river.   

One problem is that Christianity tends to embrace (1), but you do find also (2) and even elements of (4), for example, in the mystics.  I find (1) baffling, but I can sort of see something in the others.  A poet like Rumi expresses some of these.  Of course, searching it in itself paradoxical, since it will tend to estrange you even further, since you have reified yourself as 'searcher' or 'thinker'.

But surely God is such that He defies categorisation.

[ippy]

And I find it very, very difficult to square the suffering others have had to endure with an omnipotent loving creator God.

But just look at how God answers this in the book of Job.  On earth we see just a tiny fragment of the whole picture of creation.  It is equivalent to passing judgement on the author of "Lord of the Rings" by just reading a single paragraph about Frodo and Sam in the depths of Mordor.  We are unaware of the start game and the end.  We just have this tiny snippet of life on earth, and the Devil will tempt us to base all our judgements on this, but God asks us to trust him, keep faith and know that all will be well.

I like your parallel with some fiction that's equally as factious as the one you believe in Alan.

ippy

[ippy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

Are you being serious B A?

ippy

Yes.

 

You need to have another read then B A, it looks like you've missed something.

 ippy

[ippy]

If Jesus/God wants to have a chat with me, I'm open for that, why aren't they?

I hope it doesn't include you hearing voices in your head Thrud.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

Are you being serious B A?

ippy

Yes.

 

You need to have another read then B A, it looks like you've missed something.

 ippy

So, what do you mean by:  "Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?"

Also, your most unpleasant comment:  "...whatever is left of his mind... ,"  (M1773)

[ippy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

Says someone who never had any sense of reasoning when it comes to Christianity... because he knows absolutely nothing about it, other than maybe the names of the key figures, Jesus and God...

Pleasant in your language means believing any old rubbish without any supporting evidence: by the way you still haven't let me know how it is that you know what this god figure you have somewhere in your imagination is thinking, all without a shred of anything that would back your continual assertions, about what he, she or it is thinking, saying or what he, she or it would do.

Don't forget you can't use the bible as proof until that you can prove the bible is valid, I know you think the bible is valid   all without any credible evidence.

By the way how much does anyone need to know when someone tells you about someone else coming back from the dead, to make you think, "hang on a minute people don't come back from the dead"? And that's just for starters Sass 

look forward to reading about whatever it is you deem as evidence that would support your religious beliefs
; can't answer so we get another long silence?

Ippy

[ippy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

Are you being serious B A?

ippy

Yes.

 

You need to have another read then B A, it looks like you've missed something.

 ippy

So, what do you mean by:  "Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?"

Also, your most unpleasant comment:  "...whatever is left of his mind... ,"  (M1773)

If you still don't get it it's not my place, nor my intention,  to write out an explanation in in large coloured lettering.

You'll have to manage to get over it yourself, I have no idea how you have managed to get what you think I have said out of this, beats me.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

Are you being serious B A?

ippy

Yes.

 

You need to have another read then B A, it looks like you've missed something.

 ippy

So, what do you mean by:  "Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?"

Also, your most unpleasant comment:  "...whatever is left of his mind... ,"  (M1773)

If you still don't get it it's not my place, nor my intention,  to write out an explanation in in large coloured lettering.

You'll have to manage to get over it yourself, I have no idea how you have managed to get what you think I have said out of this, beats me.

ippy

I see; so you take the cowardly way out, and refuse to clarify what you said.  Par for the course, for you.

Just, briefly, looking back, the post in question seems to have disappeared...!!

[ippy]

It's obvious to me that when this Alan B goes into his own version/idea of,  of "god world" he abandons all sense of reason whenever he puts whatever is left of his mind there.

ippy

No need to be so unpleasant.

When looking at the news today another load of extreemism, I'm sure I have seen some more of this extreemism expressed somewhere, was it on this thread?
 
Religious extreemism is unpleasant.

Ippy

Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?

Are you being serious B A?

ippy

Yes.

 

You need to have another read then B A, it looks like you've missed something.

 ippy

So, what do you mean by:  "Are you seriously equating Alan B's views with the vile murderous extremes we have seen today?  If so, apologise.  If not, what the heck are you talking about?"

Also, your most unpleasant comment:  "...whatever is left of his mind... ,"  (M1773)

If you still don't get it it's not my place, nor my intention,  to write out an explanation in in large coloured lettering.

You'll have to manage to get over it yourself, I have no idea how you have managed to get what you think I have said out of this, beats me.

ippy

I see; so you take the cowardly way out, and refuse to clarify what you said.  Par for the course, for you.

Just, briefly, looking back, the post in question seems to have disappeared...!!

 

The post hasn't been removed by me.

ippy

[Sassy]

I once spoke to a woman who spent a lot of time volunteering to look after children with very serious disabilities. She used to sing praise songs with them and although they couldn't communicate she told me she was certain that they were conscious of God's love for them.

But according to Alan, they weren't.

The deity loved them so much it allowed them to have serious disabilities!

Well I don't know what this woman believed. She may be in the 'don't know' camp like Welby or the 'God does what he can but can't intervene' slightly liberal camp.

But Alan seems to think disabilities have been designed. He certainly believes in a god powerful enough to switch them off.

Whereas most believers know the work of Satan is at hand in those born with disabilities.
As sure as we are of that, we are also as sure than when the Lord Jesus returns they will be raised to be the same as everyone else.

As a mother of a disabled daughter I can speak first hand about the impact of disabilities on a family. My daughter believes in Jesus and she knows he is the son of God. When in difficulties I have heard her ask God for help. A childs mind who asks Gods help whom she cannot see but nonetheless believes he hears her and helps her.

I believe aborted babies and those we lose through miscarriage will be there in that life.

What I also believe is all harmful words and thoughts will be a thing of the past.

How does talking about disabilities help in searching for God///?

A cruel world, but if perfect then Satan would be going by himself for eternity in the Lake of Fire...

What a sick comment even for you Sass. Disabilities have natural causes nothing to do with the mythical Satan!

We have to put your misplaced and irresponsible comment down to your blundering ignorance...

[torridon]

As a mother of a disabled daughter I can speak first hand about the impact of disabilities on a family. My daughter believes in Jesus and she knows he is the son of God. When in difficulties I have heard her ask God for help. A childs mind who asks Gods help whom she cannot see but nonetheless believes he hears her and helps her.

I believe aborted babies and those we lose through miscarriage will be there in that life.

How about a one week old foetus ?

[floo]

I once spoke to a woman who spent a lot of time volunteering to look after children with very serious disabilities. She used to sing praise songs with them and although they couldn't communicate she told me she was certain that they were conscious of God's love for them.

But according to Alan, they weren't.

The deity loved them so much it allowed them to have serious disabilities!

Well I don't know what this woman believed. She may be in the 'don't know' camp like Welby or the 'God does what he can but can't intervene' slightly liberal camp.

But Alan seems to think disabilities have been designed. He certainly believes in a god powerful enough to switch them off.

Whereas most believers know the work of Satan is at hand in those born with disabilities.
As sure as we are of that, we are also as sure than when the Lord Jesus returns they will be raised to be the same as everyone else.

As a mother of a disabled daughter I can speak first hand about the impact of disabilities on a family. My daughter believes in Jesus and she knows he is the son of God. When in difficulties I have heard her ask God for help. A childs mind who asks Gods help whom she cannot see but nonetheless believes he hears her and helps her.

I believe aborted babies and those we lose through miscarriage will be there in that life.

What I also believe is all harmful words and thoughts will be a thing of the past.

How does talking about disabilities help in searching for God///?

A cruel world, but if perfect then Satan would be going by himself for eternity in the Lake of Fire...

What a sick comment even for you Sass. Disabilities have natural causes nothing to do with the mythical Satan!

We have to put your misplaced and irresponsible comment down to your blundering ignorance...

Suggesting Satan causes disabilities is SICK!  Don't forget I have two adopted sons with special educational needs, one having Down's Syndrome, and an autistic grandson!

[Alien]

...

Whereas most believers know the work of Satan is at hand in those born with disabilities...

It would be good for you to explain what you mean here, Sassy. As it stands, it does not look correct to me and looks hurtful.

[Alan Burns]

And I find it very, very difficult to square the suffering others have had to endure with an omnipotent loving creator God.

But just look at how God answers this in the book of Job.  On earth we see just a tiny fragment of the whole picture of creation.  It is equivalent to passing judgement on the author of "Lord of the Rings" by just reading a single paragraph about Frodo and Sam in the depths of Mordor.  We are unaware of the start game and the end.  We just have this tiny snippet of life on earth, and the Devil will tempt us to base all our judgements on this, but God asks us to trust him, keep faith and know that all will be well.

I like your parallel with some fiction that's equally as factious as the one you believe in Alan.

ippy

I think it is generally accepted that the book of Job is a piece of divinely inspired fiction written to illustrate a very important point.  It is a brilliant piece of writing which highlights the shallowness of human thinking, as shown in the advice given by Job's friends.  Contrasted with this is the profound wisdom of God shown in His speech to Job at the end of the book.  Two and a half thousand years on and the shallowness of human thinking is still very evident.