Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3867502 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1925 on: July 04, 2015, 08:29:34 AM »
People who think the deity answers prayers positively from time to time, should ask themselves why it chooses to ignore other prayers from people also in great need of a positive outcome?

Now one waits for the excuses as to why the deity doesn't help all who are in need! ::)

Indeed.  I find incomprehensible the view that there is some invisible cosmic being busily intervening in the natural order to do small favours just for people who believe in said cosmic being whilst leaving others in need to suffer.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1926 on: July 04, 2015, 08:34:40 AM »
Dear Torridon,

I have been waiting two days to post the 2000th post, thank you >:( >:(

Sad, yes, a bit like this thread. :(

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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1927 on: July 04, 2015, 08:35:16 AM »
People who think the deity answers prayers positively from time to time, should ask themselves why it chooses to ignore other prayers from people also in great need of a positive outcome?

Now one waits for the excuses as to why the deity doesn't help all who are in need! ::)

Indeed.  I find incomprehensible the view that there is some invisible cosmic being busily intervening in the natural order to do small favours just for people who believe in said cosmic being whilst leaving others in need to suffer.

So do I, but that doesn't stop people believing it to be true, and make excuses for it when it leaves others to suffer! :o

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1928 on: July 04, 2015, 08:48:10 AM »
Dear Torridon,

I have been waiting two days to post the 2000th post, thank you >:( >:(

Sad, yes, a bit like this thread. :(

Gonnagle.

he he, sorry old bean !

Get your eye in for the 3000th then  ;D

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1929 on: July 04, 2015, 09:10:51 AM »
People who think the deity answers prayers positively from time to time, should ask themselves why it chooses to ignore other prayers from people also in great need of a positive outcome?

Now one waits for the excuses as to why the deity doesn't help all who are in need! ::)

Indeed.  I find incomprehensible the view that there is some invisible cosmic being busily intervening in the natural order to do small favours just for people who believe in said cosmic being whilst leaving others in need to suffer.

It clearly suffers from a "people don't believe in me" complex.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1930 on: July 04, 2015, 09:38:10 AM »
People who think the deity answers prayers positively from time to time, should ask themselves why it chooses to ignore other prayers from people also in great need of a positive outcome?

Now one waits for the excuses as to why the deity doesn't help all who are in need! ::)

Indeed.  I find incomprehensible the view that there is some invisible cosmic being busily intervening in the natural order to do small favours just for people who believe in said cosmic being whilst leaving others in need to suffer.

It clearly suffers from a "people don't believe in me" complex.
As regards prayer, for a number of years the Pope has prayed each Christmas for peace in the Middle East and it has got worse and worse.  In any case, didn't Jesus say 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1931 on: July 04, 2015, 10:25:26 AM »

As regards prayer, for a number of years the Pope has prayed each Christmas for peace in the Middle East and it has got worse and worse.  In any case, didn't Jesus say 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'

The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1932 on: July 04, 2015, 10:28:48 AM »

As regards prayer, for a number of years the Pope has prayed each Christmas for peace in the Middle East and it has got worse and worse.  In any case, didn't Jesus say 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'

The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.

There will be millions, I expect, who marvel at your biased, closed-mindedness.
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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1933 on: July 04, 2015, 10:48:10 AM »

As regards prayer, for a number of years the Pope has prayed each Christmas for peace in the Middle East and it has got worse and worse.  In any case, didn't Jesus say 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'

The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.

There will be millions, I expect, who marvel at your biased, closed-mindedness.

Then they aren't very perceptive! My mind is only closed to fanciful myths, but very open to real evidence.

I assure you I would love to believe there is another life for me after this one ... but sadly, we can't choose what to believe.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1934 on: July 04, 2015, 10:55:33 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1935 on: July 04, 2015, 11:08:56 AM »

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1936 on: July 04, 2015, 12:24:44 PM »
The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.
I'm very often thinking that very thing when reading posts by AB and others.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1937 on: July 04, 2015, 12:44:28 PM »
Dear Leonard and Susan,

Yes that's the big word at the moment, story, the politicians use the word narrative.

One of the stories I believe, we ( humans ) are not that smart.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1938 on: July 04, 2015, 12:50:15 PM »

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1939 on: July 04, 2015, 02:01:35 PM »

As regards prayer, for a number of years the Pope has prayed each Christmas for peace in the Middle East and it has got worse and worse.  In any case, didn't Jesus say 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'

The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.
A statement like that is the first resort of the intellectual totalitarian who wishes to end all bets on what he has come up with.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1940 on: July 04, 2015, 02:34:21 PM »
Yes, you can often find a rational explanation for an apparently miraculous healing, but what often happens is that the healing coincides with a prayer in a way which is just too difficult to pass off as a coincidence.


Eerm, that is what we would expect from a placebo effect.

Alan you show your selection bias and confirmation bais over and again, in highlighting anecotes that might bolster your particular beliefs but you ignore 'miracles' from other faith contexts.

If you really wanted to witness to the truth you would learn to discipline yourself against being so transparently selective. There have been two major studies of the healing properties of prayer under controlled conditions; they found, at most generous, some element of placebo effect at work. This is why, if you visit Lourdes for instance, you might find crutches left behind by people who have found the self belief to rid themselves of a limp, but we don't see amputees coming away with suddenly regrown limbs or any other such truly miraculous healing.  It's all in the mind.

Fully support what you say here, Torri.
After reading Alan's Mess 1994, and, what, to me, is his rather pointless example, I was reminded of a Christian lady on an Alpha course I went to. She was talking about the efficacy of prayer in her case(I think it was Session 4). Some time previously she and her husband had wanted to buy a certain house, but unfortunately the owner had agreed to sell to someone else. She told us that she had prayed that that deal would fall through, and that she might be favoured by God so that she could buy the house. And the original deal did indeed fall through because the other person had had mortgage difficulties, so she and her husband were delighted to step in and buy the aforementioned house. She was adamant that God had answered her prayers. Obviously the whole incident was simply a matter of circumstances, but at no time did she consider the selfishness of her position.

Also, when a natural disaster occurs, and you hear of someone who thanks their God for the fact that they survived where others have died, I have always found it a rather distasteful, if understandable, part of human nature that they consider themselves to be of primary importance in their God's eyes.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1941 on: July 04, 2015, 03:12:29 PM »
Yes, you're right.  I always think of the Twin Towers and how those people must have been praying their hearts out - listening to the mobile phone calls tells you that.  God wasn't listening, apparently he was too busy sorting someone's house move out or curing an attack of migraine!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1942 on: July 04, 2015, 08:08:11 PM »
Also, when a natural disaster occurs, and you hear of someone who thanks their God for the fact that they survived where others have died, I have always found it a rather distasteful, if understandable, part of human nature that they consider themselves to be of primary importance in their God's eyes.
Yup, that's the signature of narcisism, the underwriter of much religious instinct.

I find even more distasteful the sentiments that always follow a terrible disaster, that it was God's judgement on a wicked people. Like a benevolent loving God would take out two hundred thousand people across Asia just because some Thai bar girls were immoral. Makes me cringe how people can think like that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 08:12:27 PM by torridon »

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1943 on: July 05, 2015, 08:15:44 AM »
Yes, you're right.  I always think of the Twin Towers and how those people must have been praying their hearts out - listening to the mobile phone calls tells you that.  God wasn't listening, apparently he was too busy sorting someone's house move out or curing an attack of migraine!

Or ensuring a nice day for a church fete!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1944 on: July 05, 2015, 08:40:27 AM »

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Supernaturalism is the avoidance of good reasoning and logic. If a phenomenon is amenable to description and analysis then all well and good. Something which is supernatural however is not amenable to any reduction or analysis by definition.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1945 on: July 05, 2015, 08:52:46 AM »

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Supernaturalism is the avoidance of good reasoning and logic.

I have asked for your warrant on this and still it remains a mere assertion.

You still haven't avoided the false conflation of naturalism and atheism with Good reasoning and logic.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1946 on: July 05, 2015, 09:12:30 AM »

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Aren't Dragons meant to be fierce reptilians with the ability to generate fire viscerally. And God can create whole universes ex nihilo without the need of any viscera?

In which case there is a very real difference.

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Supernaturalism is the avoidance of good reasoning and logic. If a phenomenon is amenable to description and analysis then all well and good. Something which is supernatural however is not amenable to any reduction or analysis by definition.
But magic dragons have been defined, reduced and analysed......
and found to be definitionally different to God.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1947 on: July 05, 2015, 09:13:24 AM »

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Supernaturalism is the avoidance of good reasoning and logic.

I have asked for your warrant on this and still it remains a mere assertion.

That's because I see it as a matter of definition.  Evidence doesn't come into it. Supernatural is not amenable to reason by definition.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1948 on: July 05, 2015, 09:21:21 AM »

A chain of reasoning is only as strong as its weakest link.  Introduce anything supernatural and the entire chain of reasoning is rendered meaningless. Gods, magic pixies, supernatural powers, they are all the same, they are an insult to good reasoning, destroying any logic in any sentence in which they are used.
That's rubbish. You are equating atheism and naturalism with Good reasoning and logic. What is your warrant for that?

Supernaturalism is the avoidance of good reasoning and logic.

I have asked for your warrant on this and still it remains a mere assertion.

That's because I see it as a matter of definition.  Evidence doesn't come into it. Supernatural is not amenable to reason by definition.
So naturalism is by definition reasonable.........without the need or possibility of explanation?

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1949 on: July 05, 2015, 09:24:51 AM »
It's rich you criticising 2,000-year-old thought:  it's more than you are capable of, still dealing in "fairy" and "magic" language!
People who believe in an entity they can't define doing things they don't understand by means they can't explain are dealing in magic, are they not?

But the amount of healing accounted to God would suggest you can write the possibility of God existing off... Arrrh wait a minute... you are not interested in all the facts... You have selective issues about truth when it comes to proving if God exists... You ignore all the possibilities which suggest he does exist.. sticking fingers in ears and closing eyes just in case you may have to consider then and prove yourself wrong... :D

As far as we can tell God has done no healing at all, ever, anywhere.

People make daft claims all the time, but daft claims do not make it real

You mean you never looked to see if that is true because you don't want it to be true.
The fact and I do mean fact is that dying men and women have been saved and lived because God healed them. The impossible happening through faith.
Which is why you "say" daft claims... There is nothing daft about the reality of being healed by God.
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