Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The non-existence of "God" is so glaringly obvious that I marvel at the gullibility of those who still swallow the story.

Len, can you not see the arrogance in this statement.

No, I can't. I am referring, of course to the Christian "God", and the description of him accepted by the majority of his followers. There are so many anomalies and contradictions in the Bible story of him, that only a very gullible person will swallow it, even though they have to subject their brains to the most contorted excuses for the contradictions.

If the known universe was to be shrunk down to the size of the earth, our planet would be so small that even the most powerful electron microscope could not detect it.  Our entire solar system could be lost inside of a single grain of sand.  Yet some occupants on this tiny fragment of the universe are able to use the powers of their gift of perception to deduce that the creator of it all does not exist!

No, no! I know there must be a cause that brought the universe into being, and although we have no evidence that supernatural powers exist, it is just remotely possible that one such could be the cause. It is also possible that the cause could be a physical one of which we are so far ignorant.

Since we know that the physical world exists, it is much more logical to assume it as the cause than to fly to the realms of the supernatural, about which we know nothing and for which there is no evidence.

However since the universe has no cause can it really be said to be completely naturally occurred?

[wigginhall]

Very nice point, torridon.  Alan B collapses natural and supernatural together, so, as you say, in principle, anything might well be supernatural.   Thus, I can still run for the bus, despite my great age, but I know that this is a supernatural endowment.  And so on and so on.   Gravity has still not been fully explained, but I know that it's caused by angels pulling things down to earth.   Hey, I like this game.

Here is a simple way to discriminate natural from supernatural:

A natural event has a cause directly related to the consequence of previous events.  For example the event of a cue hitting a billiard ball causes the ball to start moving.
A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

No, you are wrong.   I can actually feel the angels as they caress the cue onto the ball, thus making it move, and then they stretch out an angelic wing to make it stop, and then they whisper to me that it's time for a beer.    Hallelujah!

[Leonard James]

However since the universe has no cause can it really be said to be completely naturally occurred?

Who on earth has claimed that the universe has no cause?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

However since the universe has no cause can it really be said to be completely naturally occurred?

Who on earth has claimed that the universe has no cause?

Oh, I think you'll find those who will state the cosmos is infinitely ageless or that it just appeared.

If you believed it has been created, are you as atheist as them?

[SusanDoris]

If the known universe was to be shrunk down to the size of the earth, our planet would be so small that even the most powerful electron microscope could not detect it.  Our entire solar system could be lost inside of a single grain of sand.  Yet some occupants on this tiny fragment of the universe are able to use the powers of their gift of perception to deduce that the creator of it all does not exist!

This insight tells us of the sheer insignificance of planet Human. And yet, somehow, one species of upright ape down there has decided that the entire cosmos was created for it. That's overkill in my book. That's narcissism on steroids.

I accept that I am part of God's creation, but I humbly admit that I have no concept of what else He might have brought into existence, or for what purpose.

I wish you would try notjust accepting that you are a manipulated puppet under the control of something you have convinced yourself you believe is 'out there' somewhere! Challenge this imagined being! Don't be humble, be equal! You needn't be ill-mannered towards this imaginary being, but certainly there is no need to be humble! No-one should ever be humble; respectful, valuing each as a human being and acknowledging clearly and honestly our situation, yes; but humble? No.


Could be better expressed, but I'll leave it as that for now.

[Shaker]

However since the universe has no cause can it really be said to be completely naturally occurred?

Who on earth has claimed that the universe has no cause?

Oh, I think you'll find those who will state the cosmos is infinitely ageless or that it just appeared.

If you believed it has been created, are you as atheist as them?

To qualify as an atheist you simply have to disbelieve that any gods exist.

You know this, so I don't know why I'm having to point it out.

[Leonard James]

However since the universe has no cause can it really be said to be completely naturally occurred?

Who on earth has claimed that the universe has no cause?

Oh, I think you'll find those who will state the cosmos is infinitely ageless or that it just appeared.

If you believed it has been created, are you as atheist as them?

I don't believe it was 'created' ... I believe something caused it, which is not the same thing.

[torridon]

Very nice point, torridon.  Alan B collapses natural and supernatural together, so, as you say, in principle, anything might well be supernatural.   Thus, I can still run for the bus, despite my great age, but I know that this is a supernatural endowment.  And so on and so on.   Gravity has still not been fully explained, but I know that it's caused by angels pulling things down to earth.   Hey, I like this game.

Here is a simple way to discriminate natural from supernatural:

A natural event has a cause directly related to the consequence of previous events.  For example the event of a cue hitting a billiard ball causes the ball to start moving.
A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

I just decided to drink a glass of water because I was thirsty. Did a supernatural event just take place in the torridon household ?

[Leonard James]

A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

No, Alan, as I have already explained to you, there is nothing supernatural about free will. It is something that arose naturally in the course of evolution. An organism with the ability to assess a situation and act in a way to catch a prey (or conversely, evade being caught) would have a survival advantage over an organism that did not possess the ability.

[Alan Burns]

Very nice point, torridon.  Alan B collapses natural and supernatural together, so, as you say, in principle, anything might well be supernatural.   Thus, I can still run for the bus, despite my great age, but I know that this is a supernatural endowment.  And so on and so on.   Gravity has still not been fully explained, but I know that it's caused by angels pulling things down to earth.   Hey, I like this game.

Here is a simple way to discriminate natural from supernatural:

A natural event has a cause directly related to the consequence of previous events.  For example the event of a cue hitting a billiard ball causes the ball to start moving.
A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

I just decided to drink a glass of water because I was thirsty. Did a supernatural event just take place in the torridon household ?

But you could have chosen to drink fruit juice or lemonade or beer.  Any conscious decision is supernatural because it is invoked by your conscious self, not by your animal instinct.

[Leonard James]

Any conscious decision is supernatural because it is invoked by your conscious self, not by your animal instinct.

Alan, for goodness' sake don't dig yourself any deeper, you will never get out!

[torridon]

Very nice point, torridon.  Alan B collapses natural and supernatural together, so, as you say, in principle, anything might well be supernatural.   Thus, I can still run for the bus, despite my great age, but I know that this is a supernatural endowment.  And so on and so on.   Gravity has still not been fully explained, but I know that it's caused by angels pulling things down to earth.   Hey, I like this game.

Here is a simple way to discriminate natural from supernatural:

A natural event has a cause directly related to the consequence of previous events.  For example the event of a cue hitting a billiard ball causes the ball to start moving.
A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

I just decided to drink a glass of water because I was thirsty. Did a supernatural event just take place in the torridon household ?

But you could have chosen to drink fruit juice or lemonade or beer.  Any conscious decision is supernatural because it is invoked by your conscious self, not by your animal instinct.

It was a really hot day yesterday. My dog was thirsty too, so I put down a bowl of water and a bowl of milk and Rover, like me, chose to go for the water. In both of us, the feeling of thirst triggered the response of imbibing our favourite thirst quencher. You think Rover's decision was natural, but my decision was supernatural ?

[Alan Burns]

Any conscious decision is supernatural because it is invoked by your conscious self, not by your animal instinct.

Alan, for goodness' sake don't dig yourself any deeper, you will never get out!

Len,
I am not alone in this this thinking.

CS Lewis, regarded by many as one of the most prominent Christian writers of the modern era, devoted much of his book, "Miracles" to this subject, concluding that conscious thought processes are supernatural.

I came to the same conclusions myself over forty years ago before reading any of Lewis's books.

[Alan Burns]

Very nice point, torridon.  Alan B collapses natural and supernatural together, so, as you say, in principle, anything might well be supernatural.   Thus, I can still run for the bus, despite my great age, but I know that this is a supernatural endowment.  And so on and so on.   Gravity has still not been fully explained, but I know that it's caused by angels pulling things down to earth.   Hey, I like this game.

Here is a simple way to discriminate natural from supernatural:

A natural event has a cause directly related to the consequence of previous events.  For example the event of a cue hitting a billiard ball causes the ball to start moving.
A supernatural event has a cause outside the normal chain of "cause and effect" for example the freewill decision by the holder of the cue to strike the ball.

I just decided to drink a glass of water because I was thirsty. Did a supernatural event just take place in the torridon household ?

But you could have chosen to drink fruit juice or lemonade or beer.  Any conscious decision is supernatural because it is invoked by your conscious self, not by your animal instinct.

It was a really hot day yesterday. My dog was thirsty too, so I put down a bowl of water and a bowl of milk and Rover, like me, chose to go for the water. In both of us, the feeling of thirst triggered the response of imbibing our favourite thirst quencher. You think Rover's decision was natural, but my decision was supernatural ?

The fact that I am free to choose is sufficient evidence to conclude that my choice is invoked by my spiritual soul.  I do not know if Rover is free to choose, or whether he is guided by instinct.

[Leonard James]

Len,
I am not alone in this this thinking.

Of course you aren't. No religious belief of any sort is restricted to one believer, but that has nothing to do with the truth of the belief.

CS Lewis, regarded by many as one of the most prominent Christian writers of the modern era devoted much of his book, "Miracles" to this subject, concluding that conscious thought processes are supernatural.

I have read some of CS Lewis, and find him no more convincing than you.

I came to the same conclusions myself over forty years ago before reading any of Lewis's books.

Then you made the same mistake as he did, in believing that free will and conscious thought are sourced in the supernatural.

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

[Maeght]

The fact that I am free to choose is sufficient evidence to conclude that my choice is invoked by my spiritual soul.  I do not know if Rover is free to choose, or whether he is guided by instinct.

Can't really believe I'm bothering to post this again but ....

You don't know that you are free to choose anymore than Rover is. You want to believe that because it is seen by you as proof of a soul and because you want it to be the case that people can freely choose to believe in God or 'reject' God. You cannot demonstrate freewill only that, with our more complex brains, what determines our actions is more complex than in other animals.

[Hope]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence. 

[Hope]

Can't really believe I'm bothering to post this again but ....

You don't know that you are free to choose anymore than Rover is. You want to believe that because it is seen by you as proof of a soul and because you want it to be the case that people can freely choose to believe in God or 'reject' God. You cannot demonstrate freewill only that, with our more complex brains, what determines our actions is more complex than in other animals.

And you have evidence to this effect, Maeght?  Or is it just your opinion?

[BeRational]

Can't really believe I'm bothering to post this again but ....

You don't know that you are free to choose anymore than Rover is. You want to believe that because it is seen by you as proof of a soul and because you want it to be the case that people can freely choose to believe in God or 'reject' God. You cannot demonstrate freewill only that, with our more complex brains, what determines our actions is more complex than in other animals.

And you have evidence to this effect, Maeght?  Or is it just your opinion?

Do you have evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?

You never give your evidence despite being asked for it many many times!

[Leonard James]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence.

The evidence is there, in evolution. That you refuse to accept it and prefer to resort to the "supernatural" to explain them is something I can do nothing about.

[Alan Burns]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence.

The evidence is there, in evolution. That you refuse to accept it and prefer to resort to the "supernatural" to explain them is something I can do nothing about.

But you are suggesting that this essentially crude natural selection process is capable of producing conscious awareness, which still has no scientific definition.  Until you can physically define conscious awareness, and show that it can be generated by a series of random physical mutations, the supernatural explanation remains the only realistic option.

[BeRational]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence.

The evidence is there, in evolution. That you refuse to accept it and prefer to resort to the "supernatural" to explain them is something I can do nothing about.

But you are suggesting that this essentially crude natural selection process is capable of producing conscious awareness, which still has no scientific definition.  Until you can physically define conscious awareness, and show that it can be generated by a series of random physical mutations, the supernatural explanation remains the only realistic option.

For goodness sake. The supernatural is NEVER an answer to anything.

The true answer at the moment is. Don't know.

[Leonard James]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence.

The evidence is there, in evolution. That you refuse to accept it and prefer to resort to the "supernatural" to explain them is something I can do nothing about.

But you are suggesting that this essentially crude natural selection process is capable of producing conscious awareness, which still has no scientific definition.  Until you can physically define conscious awareness, and show that it can be generated by a series of random physical mutations, the supernatural explanation remains the only realistic option.

There is nothing crude about the process of evolution, Alan. Simple, yes, but it has produced some of the most beautifully structured, and intricate forms of life we can imagine.

However, I have no more time to waste on this.

Sadly, my computer needs debugging, because for me to post even the shortest things it takes for ever, and I just don't have the time to spare.

[Maeght]

Can't really believe I'm bothering to post this again but ....

You don't know that you are free to choose anymore than Rover is. You want to believe that because it is seen by you as proof of a soul and because you want it to be the case that people can freely choose to believe in God or 'reject' God. You cannot demonstrate freewill only that, with our more complex brains, what determines our actions is more complex than in other animals.

And you have evidence to this effect, Maeght?  Or is it just your opinion?

There is evidence that our brains are more complex. There is evidence that the processes whch go on in our brains when determining an action is complex and involves complex processes and interactions within the brain. As I have said on other threads demonstrating freewill or the lack of it is nigh on impossible - only that there are complex processses going on in the brain when decisions are made.

[Maeght]

There is a perfectly natural explanation for both, making the "supernatural", if such a thing exists, totally superfluous.

Perhaps you would be the first person to actually explain and exemplar that first bit I've met, Len.  I've heard a lot of people make such a claim over the years, but never seen the supporting evidence.

The evidence is there, in evolution. That you refuse to accept it and prefer to resort to the "supernatural" to explain them is something I can do nothing about.

But you are suggesting that this essentially crude natural selection process is capable of producing conscious awareness, which still has no scientific definition.  Until you can physically define conscious awareness, and show that it can be generated by a series of random physical mutations, the supernatural explanation remains the only realistic option.

In the absence of a definition feel free to decide that there must be a supernatural explanation of course but don't expect this to be seen as anything more than an expression of your beliefs.