Searching for GOD...

[Maeght]

He could have done or he could have just signed off and not returned but this is a site for discussing beliefs. 

Yes, discussing, not stating them as being obvious facts and the truth. Being aware that they are personal beliefs is important and worth pointing out now and again.

[BeRational]

I predict he will continue to repeat them as facts.

[Alan Burns]

He could have done or he could have just signed off and not returned but this is a site for discussing beliefs.  Now that he has said this :  "I just believe that God is the essence of reality.  God is simply that which exists outside our universe, and brought our universe into being." it might have been better if he had related his reply to the topic heading and suggested how to search for this 'essence' and realise it (make it real) rather than just believe in it.  Also, if his God exists outside of the universe, how does this relate to 'the Kingdom of Heaven within' and 'our Father who is in Heaven' and does it mean that his God is not omnipresent and therefore not omniscient?  Perhaps you could answer this, Alan.

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God, which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

[BeRational]

I need to do the lottery more often.

But this prediction was pretty easy!

[wigginhall]

If it were intelligently guided then it would not contain thousands of inherited encoded disorders that afflict humans; if it were cleanly designed then it would not contain redundant genes from all our prehuman ancestors, it would not contain non-human viral insertions, it would be free of redundant junk.

You rightly point out our imperfections.

But in order to recognise imperfections, we need to have a concept of perfection.  Perfection does not exist in our material world, but it does exist as a concept within the human mind - but where does this concept come from if it does not exist?  Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Another tremendous Messi-like swerve there.   You have to admire that way that Alan can see an obstacle looming - here his argument that cells must be intelligently designed hits against the junk or bad code that is found there - no problem!   A quick 'look over there, let's talk about perfection', and hopefully nobody will notice that the first argument has been shot down in flames, and now hangs rather pathetically from a ruined tree, its parachute flapping in the breeze.  Who needs argument and logic when you can do distraction techniques like this?  Ronaldo, eat your heart out!

[Shaker]

There is no way to prove that the process of evolution was not intelligently guided.

Negative proof fallacy. See Hope for details.

ETA: Whoops, torridon beat me to it.

[torridon]

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God, which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

That must be why I am having problems with it then. I am a human, and human logic is the only flavour available to me.  I cannot believe things that make no sense to me.

[Shaker]

I cannot believe things that make no sense to me.

The great irony here is that Alan claims to feel the same way.

[torridon]

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God, which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

I think this is somewhat in the nature of a bland disclaimer.  You know your beliefs don't really make sense, so you hide behind the incomprehensibility of God.  That rather contrasts with the view that the universe (that God created) is manifestly intelligible. If was not, then we would not be able to do any science. Why would an unintelligible god create an intelligible cosmos ?  I feel a flaw in that thinking.  Must go and ponder for a bit .....

[Shaker]

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God, which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

I think this is somewhat in the nature of a bland disclaimer.  You know your beliefs don't really make sense, so you hide behind the incomprehensibility of God.  That rather contrasts with the view that the universe (that God created) is manifestly intelligible.

To be fair, only up to a point.

[Alan Burns]

Another tremendous Messi-like swerve there.   You have to admire that way that Alan can see an obstacle looming - here his argument that cells must be intelligently designed hits against the junk or bad code that is found there - no problem!   A quick 'look over there, let's talk about perfection', and hopefully nobody will notice that the first argument has been shot down in flames, and now hangs rather pathetically from a ruined tree, its parachute flapping in the breeze.  Who needs argument and logic when you can do distraction techniques like this?  Ronaldo, eat your heart out!

I was simply pointing out the fallacy of trying to use imperfection as an excuse not to believe in God.

[Shaker]

No, Alan.

You commit the fallacies - we point them out to you

[Maeght]

Another tremendous Messi-like swerve there.   You have to admire that way that Alan can see an obstacle looming - here his argument that cells must be intelligently designed hits against the junk or bad code that is found there - no problem!   A quick 'look over there, let's talk about perfection', and hopefully nobody will notice that the first argument has been shot down in flames, and now hangs rather pathetically from a ruined tree, its parachute flapping in the breeze.  Who needs argument and logic when you can do distraction techniques like this?  Ronaldo, eat your heart out!

I was simply pointing out the fallacy of trying to use imperfection as an excuse not to believe in God.

No one looks for excuses Alan.

[Enki]

They may maintain it but have never been able to invalidate the ToE by natural selection.

There is no way to prove that the process of evolution was not intelligently guided.  It is an assumption based on the belief that God does not exist.

I agree. There is no way to prove that the process of evolution was/is not intelligently guided. There is also no way to prove that the process of evolution was/is intelligently guided. However, there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that the evolutionary process does not actually need any intelligence for it to operate.

That is but one reason why the idea of a god is of little significance in my life. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to agree with this, probably because of your innate feelings of personal incredulity.

[Alan Burns]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

[BeRational]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

I would assume it must boil down to that.

So what?

[Enki]

Another tremendous Messi-like swerve there.   You have to admire that way that Alan can see an obstacle looming - here his argument that cells must be intelligently designed hits against the junk or bad code that is found there - no problem!   A quick 'look over there, let's talk about perfection', and hopefully nobody will notice that the first argument has been shot down in flames, and now hangs rather pathetically from a ruined tree, its parachute flapping in the breeze.  Who needs argument and logic when you can do distraction techniques like this?  Ronaldo, eat your heart out!

I was simply pointing out the fallacy of trying to use imperfection as an excuse not to believe in God.

No one looks for excuses Alan.

I find it interesting that Alan likes to makes assumptions about the motivations of others without any knowledge whatever. I wonder why?

[Alan Burns]

However, there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that the evolutionary process does not actually need any intelligence for it to operate.

To develop a human being, (and all other life forms), from a simple cell by the unguided process of evolution will require billions of testable beneficial mutations to have been generated.  In the history of the human race, relatively few of such beneficial testable mutations have been observed to occur.  The vast majority of observed mutations are seen to be detrimental.  To me this does not amount to a huge amount of evidence to support the adequacy of a blind, unguided natural selection process to produce complex life forms.

I have no doubt that the required mutations did occur, otherwise we would not be here, but the question in my mind is the feasibility that all these beneficial testable mutations could have been produced by the random unguided forces of nature.

[torridon]

Another tremendous Messi-like swerve there.   You have to admire that way that Alan can see an obstacle looming - here his argument that cells must be intelligently designed hits against the junk or bad code that is found there - no problem!   A quick 'look over there, let's talk about perfection', and hopefully nobody will notice that the first argument has been shot down in flames, and now hangs rather pathetically from a ruined tree, its parachute flapping in the breeze.  Who needs argument and logic when you can do distraction techniques like this?  Ronaldo, eat your heart out!

I was simply pointing out the fallacy of trying to use imperfection as an excuse not to believe in God.

Eerm, that's another fallacy Alan.  I think you are going for some kind of record here.

[Alan Burns]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

I would assume it must boil down to that.

So what?

So how can a pattern of electrons get translated to a vivid picture of imagination?
Like dots on a TV screen, you need an external observer to perceive the picture given by the collective action of many electrons.

[BeRational]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

I would assume it must boil down to that.

So what?

So how can a pattern of electrons get translated to a vivid picture of imagination?
Like dots on a TV screen, you need an external observer to perceive the picture given by the collective action of many electrons.

I have absolutely no idea.

I put it that you do not know either, so we should both leave it at that.

The difference is that I do not make up and answer to feel happy, but you need to for some reason.

It changes nothing, you still do not know.

[SusanDoris]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

[Nearly Sane]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

I would assume it must boil down to that.

So what?

So how can a pattern of electrons get translated to a vivid picture of imagination?
Like dots on a TV screen, you need an external observer to perceive the picture given by the collective action of many electrons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbO7czzIu_o

[torridon]

However, there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that the evolutionary process does not actually need any intelligence for it to operate.

To develop a human being, (and all other life forms), from a simple cell by the unguided process of evolution will require billions of testable beneficial mutations to have been generated.  In the history of the human race, relatively few of such beneficial testable mutations have been observed to occur.  The vast majority of observed mutations are seen to be detrimental.  To me this does not amount to a huge amount of evidence to support the adequacy of a blind, unguided natural selection process to produce complex life forms.

I have no doubt that the required mutations did occur, otherwise we would not be here, but the question in my mind is the feasibility that all these beneficial testable mutations could have been produced by the random unguided forces of nature.

Think deep time. Life has been developing in complexity gradually over most of the life of this planet; humans have only just arrived on the scene in the last minute before midnight if you view Earth history as a 24 hour clock. The biomass here has been constantly bombarded all that time producing trillions of trillions of mutations, each one, a potentially life-altering event. I will have suffered several dozen point mutations during the few minutes I have spent writing this post as my body suffers impact from charged particles from space. This is the basic process that provides novelty for selection to act on. How would an intelligent guiding force intervene in this process ? Do you imagine god lets it all run naturally but alters the trajectory of a few particles now and then in order to engineer key evolutionary changes ? If I were a god with the power to create universes, I would just wave my hand and say 'Let it be'

[Alan Burns]

Do you imagine god lets it all run naturally but alters the trajectory of a few particles now and then in order to engineer key evolutionary changes ? If I were a god with the power to create universes, I would just wave my hand and say 'Let it be'

I would assume that some of the particles had to be aimed with a precision beyond our comprehension.

I do not perceive God zapping things into existence.  As I see it he sets things in motion, then manipulates by interaction, probably using quantum events which appear to have no deterministic cause.