Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

[BeRational]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

And you miss the love of Thor, Wotan, etc

[Enki]

However, there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that the evolutionary process does not actually need any intelligence for it to operate.

To develop a human being, (and all other life forms), from a simple cell by the unguided process of evolution will require billions of testable beneficial mutations to have been generated.  In the history of the human race, relatively few of such beneficial testable mutations have been observed to occur.  The vast majority of observed mutations are seen to be detrimental.  To me this does not amount to a huge amount of evidence to support the adequacy of a blind, unguided natural selection process to produce complex life forms.

I have no doubt that the required mutations did occur, otherwise we would not be here, but the question in my mind is the feasibility that all these beneficial testable mutations could have been produced by the random unguided forces of nature.

I really think you need to take a look at what evolution entails, Alan.

You might start by looking at the TalkOrigins Website, and here are two specific locations:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Might be useful for defining what evolution(and, especially biological evolution) means.

2)  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

The intro is worth reading, and the section 1.1.1 followed by 1.2.1 deal with some of the points you make.

Finally, your idea that the process of evolution is unguided, is simply not true.

 

[torridon]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

You can blame that on God then, it is his will.

[torridon]

Do you imagine god lets it all run naturally but alters the trajectory of a few particles now and then in order to engineer key evolutionary changes ? If I were a god with the power to create universes, I would just wave my hand and say 'Let it be'

I would assume that some of the particles had to be aimed with a precision beyond our comprehension.

I do not perceive God zapping things into existence.  As I see it he sets things in motion, then manipulates by interaction, probably using quantum events which appear to have no deterministic cause.

I see you have spotted a gap then 

[Maeght]

Could our concept of perfection be a God given insight into the nature of Heaven?

Only if you've got a very vivid imagination.

And what in physical terms do you believe your imagination comprises of?
Is it just a pattern of electrons buzzing around inside your head?

Irrelevant. Another attempt to swerve?

[ekim]

Alan

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God,.

So you are just left with a blind belief in 'essence of reality'.

which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.

What causes you to believe that this 'essence of reality' became Jesus.  Doesn't it seem strange to you that Jesus rejected being called good and said only God is  good, and that there are a number of instances where Jesus prayed to his God and called out on the cross 'why have you forsaken me'.  Was he talking to himself?

The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

There are some Christians who believe that Jesus was the logos and was human.  It would be surprising that his message did not have some logic within it.  However, you seemed to have recognised the 'profound wisdom of God' even though you cannot 'comprehend the true nature of God'.  Perhaps you could indicate what you think Jesus' message is and whether it goes anyway towards the topic of this thread 'searching for God'.

[ekim]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

You can blame that on God then, it is his will.

.... unless it is the Hindu God indulging in his pastime of creative play (Lila).

[Alan Burns]

However, you seemed to have recognised the 'profound wisdom of God' even though you cannot 'comprehend the true nature of God'.  Perhaps you could indicate what you think Jesus' message is and whether it goes anyway towards the topic of this thread 'searching for God'.

To discover the full message of Jesus you need to read the new testament, but most Christians find this passage is a good summary:
John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

[Alan Burns]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

You can blame that on God then, it is his will.

No, you can blame the Devil who does all in his power to hide God from us.

[Shaker]

I really think you need to take a look at what evolution entails, Alan.

You might start by looking at the TalkOrigins Website, and here are two specific locations:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Might be useful for defining what evolution(and, especially biological evolution) means.

2)  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

The intro is worth reading, and the section 1.1.1 followed by 1.2.1 deal with some of the points you make.

Finally, your idea that the process of evolution is unguided, is simply not true.

It's only a couple of weeks since I gave Alan an extensive reading list of layman-level books on evolution. That was every bit as much a waste of time as linking to TalkOrigins is now, I'm afraid.

[Shaker]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

You can blame that on God then, it is his will.

No, you can blame the Devil who does all in his power to hide God from us.

You'd have to be extremely silly and in fact really rather childish to do that, Alan.

[wigginhall]

This is becoming like a western film - we've had the guy in the white hat, who rides into town, and who is God, and now the guy in the black hat rides in, and he is Satan.  Now all Alan has to do is decide which bits are determined by which.   OK, the viruses are from black hat, and antibiotics are from white hat, nasty slimy things = black hat, sweet furry things = white hat.   This could go well on kids TV. 

[ekim]

However, you seemed to have recognised the 'profound wisdom of God' even though you cannot 'comprehend the true nature of God'.  Perhaps you could indicate what you think Jesus' message is and whether it goes anyway towards the topic of this thread 'searching for God'.

To discover the full message of Jesus you need to read the new testament, but most Christians find this passage is a good summary:
John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

That quote is not a message from Jesus.  It is John's spin, (whoever John was) on what John believes.  If you look at the sayings of Jesus you will see that belief is not enough.  That quote also appears to fly in the face of your claim that God became Jesus.

[Alan Burns]

I really think you need to take a look at what evolution entails, Alan.

You might start by looking at the TalkOrigins Website, and here are two specific locations:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Might be useful for defining what evolution(and, especially biological evolution) means.

2)  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

The intro is worth reading, and the section 1.1.1 followed by 1.2.1 deal with some of the points you make.

Finally, your idea that the process of evolution is unguided, is simply not true.

Thanks for the links.  I have been aware of the TalkOrigins website for many years, but remain unconvinced by the arguments put forward which suggest that the entire process of evolution did not require any form of intelligent intervention or guidance.  What it all boils down to is that changes have occurred in life forms which can enhance the chances of survival.  This is merely an observation of some past events with no means of determining the true causes or probabilities of these events taking place.  The biggest mystery in the evolution process remains the creation of the conscious awareness in humans which I believe to be a property of the spiritual soul.  Even Richard Dawkins concedes in his book, "The Selfish Gene" that subjective consciousness remains the biggest challenge to biologists.

[Alan Burns]

However, you seemed to have recognised the 'profound wisdom of God' even though you cannot 'comprehend the true nature of God'.  Perhaps you could indicate what you think Jesus' message is and whether it goes anyway towards the topic of this thread 'searching for God'.

To discover the full message of Jesus you need to read the new testament, but most Christians find this passage is a good summary:
John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

That quote is not a message from Jesus.  It is John's spin, (whoever John was) on what John believes.  If you look at the sayings of Jesus you will see that belief is not enough.  That quote also appears to fly in the face of your claim that God became Jesus.

John 11:25
Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die"

[wigginhall]

I really think you need to take a look at what evolution entails, Alan.

You might start by looking at the TalkOrigins Website, and here are two specific locations:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Might be useful for defining what evolution(and, especially biological evolution) means.

2)  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

The intro is worth reading, and the section 1.1.1 followed by 1.2.1 deal with some of the points you make.

Finally, your idea that the process of evolution is unguided, is simply not true.

Thanks for the links.  I have been aware of the TalkOrigins website for many years, but remain unconvinced by the arguments put forward which suggest that the entire process of evolution did not require any form of intelligent intervention or guidance.  What it all boils down to is that changes have occurred in life forms which can enhance the chances of survival.  This is merely an observation of some past events with no means of determining the true causes or probabilities of these events taking place.  The biggest mystery in the evolution process remains the creation of the conscious awareness in humans which I believe to be a property of the spiritual soul.  Even Richard Dawkins concedes in his book, "The Selfish Gene" that subjective consciousness remains the biggest challenge to biologists.

Well, gravity is a challenge to physicists, and there are different theoretical accounts of it.  Maybe we could solve this by saying that God makes the apple fall off the tree, think of all the research that could be stopped at once, and the money saved!

[Alan Burns]

Well, gravity is a challenge to physicists, and there are different theoretical accounts of it.  Maybe we could solve this by saying that God makes the apple fall off the tree, think of all the research that could be stopped at once, and the money saved!

Gravity is a predictable physical property of this universe, the effects of which can be accurately calculated using mathematics.

Conscious awareness is our only window into the reality of this universe.  It is not a physical property and it can't be represented or defined in mathematical formulae or in chemical activity.

[Enki]

I really think you need to take a look at what evolution entails, Alan.

You might start by looking at the TalkOrigins Website, and here are two specific locations:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Might be useful for defining what evolution(and, especially biological evolution) means.

2)  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

The intro is worth reading, and the section 1.1.1 followed by 1.2.1 deal with some of the points you make.

Finally, your idea that the process of evolution is unguided, is simply not true.

It's only a couple of weeks since I gave Alan an extensive reading list of layman-level books on evolution. That was every bit as much a waste of time as linking to TalkOrigins is now, I'm afraid.

I know, Shakes, but I thought I'd give it a try, anyway. Although, to tell you the truth,  after reading his response in mess 2196,  I don't think I'll be bothering again.

[jjohnjil]

Well, gravity is a challenge to physicists, and there are different theoretical accounts of it.  Maybe we could solve this by saying that God makes the apple fall off the tree, think of all the research that could be stopped at once, and the money saved!

Gravity is a predictable physical property of this universe, the effects of which can be accurately calculated using mathematics.

Conscious awareness is our only window into the reality of this universe.  It is not a physical property and it can't be represented or defined in mathematical formulae or in chemical activity.

In other words, Alan, you can't think how it works so you go back to the Bronze Age answer ... GODDIDIT !!!

Research and inquiry would have ended in 2000BC if everyone had thought like you!

[Alan Burns]

I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God, which is why God chose to make Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  The message Jesus gives is not based on human logic - in fact it turns human logic upside down to reveal the profound  wisdom of God.

That must be why I am having problems with it then. I am a human, and human logic is the only flavour available to me.  I cannot believe things that make no sense to me.

Human logic can only comprehend a limited amount of reality.  I personally find it difficult to contemplate the existence of anything infinite (in time or dimensions).  I find it impossible to comprehend the idea that space is either finite or infinite.  I also can't get my head round the idea of time coming to an end or time going on forever.  If everything has a start and an end, what exists outside these limits?  Many things make no sense, but some of these things must exist.

[Alan Burns]

Alan doesn't seem to get it, does he?

Agreed. Actually, I find it really sad that someone can be so deeply entrenched in a religious belief, so blinkered to the facts of life and death, that he will probably never know the  excitement, the magic of reality.

The sadness in my eyes is that so many people are set to live their lives without ever experiencing the joy of God's love.

You can blame that on God then, it is his will.

No, you can blame the Devil who does all in his power to hide God from us.

You'd have to be extremely silly and in fact really rather childish to do that, Alan.

That is just the sort of response that the Great Deceiver loves to see.

[Shaker]

... and that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.

Masses of us here, me included, say that people disbelieve in any gods because these concepts are either poorly or even undefined, lacking in any good evidence of the kind that we find sufficient for us to believe other things, utterly lacking in explanatory power, vastly better explained by well-understood principles of human psychology and anthropology, etc.

You say that people disbelieve in gods because a naughty supernatural (i.e. immaterial, intangible, invisible, silent) entity hides the truth from them somehow.

Who do you think comes across as the childish, credulous loon here, Alan?

[Alan Burns]

In other words, Alan, you can't think how it works so you go back to the Bronze Age answer ... GODDIDIT !!!

Research and inquiry would have ended in 2000BC if everyone had thought like you!

I do not know how my conscious awareness works (apparently neither does anyone else), but I know what it does.  It perceives the collective content of my brain cells, and it also has the ability to interact with my brain to control my thought processes and invoke physical acts of free will.  If you wait for a materialistc explanation of conscious awareness, I feel that you (and many generations to come) will be waiting a long, long time.

[Alan Burns]

... and that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.

Masses of us here, me included, say that people disbelieve in any gods because these concepts are either poorly or even undefined, lacking in any good evidence of the kind that we find sufficient for us to believe other things, utterly lacking in explanatory power, vastly better explained by well-understood principles of human psychology and anthropology, etc.

You say that people disbelieve in gods because a naughty supernatural (i.e. immaterial, intangible, invisible, silent) entity hides the truth from them somehow.

Who do you think comes across as the childish, credulous loon here, Alan?

No doubt you will think differently when the scales of deception fall away.  I just hope and pray that one day you will see the truth.