Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3867582 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2125 on: July 08, 2015, 07:29:03 PM »
No doubt you will think differently when the scales of deception fall away. I just hope and pray that one day you will see the truth.
I don't believe I am deceived, Alan, because I go out of my way to base my beliefs on fact, evidence, reason and logic. It's quite a minimal, humble, small-c conservative approach to reality - what Daniel Harbour calls a Spartan meritocracy* - but it proves its worth and efficacy day in and day out. You do not do this. In fact the more you post the more it becomes obvious that you do the direct opposite of this.

What you actually mean, of course - as is always the way with such statements - is that you pray that one day I will believe as you do.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Intelligent_Person%27s_Guide_to_Atheism
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:32:21 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2126 on: July 08, 2015, 07:34:12 PM »
Thanks for all your responses.  I am just off to the pub quiz now to excercise my brain cells.   :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2127 on: July 08, 2015, 08:18:44 PM »
No doubt you will think differently when the scales of deception fall away. I just hope and pray that one day you will see the truth.
I don't believe I am deceived, Alan, because I go out of my way to base my beliefs on fact, evidence, reason and logic. It's quite a minimal, humble, small-c conservative approach to reality - what Daniel Harbour calls a Spartan meritocracy* - but it proves its worth and efficacy day in and day out. You do not do this. In fact the more you post the more it becomes obvious that you do the direct opposite of this.

What you actually mean, of course - as is always the way with such statements - is that you pray that one day I will believe as you do.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Intelligent_Person%27s_Guide_to_Atheism
Another atheist Blab confusing methodological materialism with philosophical materialism.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2128 on: July 08, 2015, 08:19:28 PM »
More points for Shaker!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2129 on: July 08, 2015, 08:25:09 PM »
More points for Shaker!
'ello Sooty!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2130 on: July 09, 2015, 07:41:29 AM »

In other words, Alan, you can't think how it works so you go back to the Bronze Age answer ... GODDIDIT !!!

Research and inquiry would have ended in 2000BC if everyone had thought like you!
Research and enquiry can be used to discover how God makes things work, and mankind has used this knowledge to emulate God's creativity by making things work for ourselves.  It reveals a universe which appears to be designed for intelligent manipulation rather than uncontrolled deterministic behaviour.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 07:44:06 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2131 on: July 09, 2015, 08:46:36 AM »

In other words, Alan, you can't think how it works so you go back to the Bronze Age answer ... GODDIDIT !!!

Research and inquiry would have ended in 2000BC if everyone had thought like you!
Research and enquiry can be used to discover how God makes things work, and mankind has used this knowledge to emulate God's creativity by making things work for ourselves.  It reveals a universe which appears to be designed for intelligent manipulation rather than uncontrolled deterministic behaviour.

No, Alan, theology tells us nothing about how things work, all it does is to praise the entity it thinks created those things.  Anyone who looked into how things actually worked were persecuted for suggesting that God wasn't the answer!

Even Darwin, with one of the most important discoveries ever, was too afraid of the consequences of the Church accusing him of blasphemy that he held off putting it forward for 25 years - and that was less than 200 years ago, before that you could be put to death for it!

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2132 on: July 09, 2015, 09:35:36 AM »
However, you seemed to have recognised the 'profound wisdom of God' even though you cannot 'comprehend the true nature of God'.  Perhaps you could indicate what you think Jesus' message is and whether it goes anyway towards the topic of this thread 'searching for God'.
To discover the full message of Jesus you need to read the new testament, but most Christians find this passage is a good summary:
John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

That quote is not a message from Jesus.  It is John's spin, (whoever John was) on what John believes.  If you look at the sayings of Jesus you will see that belief is not enough.  That quote also appears to fly in the face of your claim that God became Jesus.
John 11:25
Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die"

To use your comment elsewhere: 'That is just the sort of response that the Great Deceiver loves to see.'  .... promoting the man and not the God, or promoting the man to God status.  Perhaps one day the truth will set you free from your beliefs.

horsethorn

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2133 on: July 09, 2015, 10:53:22 AM »
I have been aware of the TalkOrigins website for many years, but remain unconvinced by the arguments put forward which suggest that the entire process of evolution did not require any form of intelligent intervention or guidance. 


Gravity is a predictable physical property of this universe, the effects of which can be accurately calculated using mathematics.

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

ht
Darth Horsethorn, Most Patient Saint®, Senior Wrangler®, Knight Inerrant® and Gonnagle of the Reformed Church of the Debatable Saints®
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"We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out." (Delenn, Babylon 5)

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2134 on: July 09, 2015, 11:02:15 AM »
I have been aware of the TalkOrigins website for many years, but remain unconvinced by the arguments put forward which suggest that the entire process of evolution did not require any form of intelligent intervention or guidance. 


Gravity is a predictable physical property of this universe, the effects of which can be accurately calculated using mathematics.

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

ht

Also it depends what you mean by accurately.

Gravity I think at the moment is approximated, and still needs further refinements.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2135 on: July 09, 2015, 11:26:54 AM »

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

You could make the same observations about a Grandfather Clock
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2136 on: July 09, 2015, 11:30:52 AM »

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

You could make the same observations about a Grandfather Clock

Evolution is a continuously changing process, Alan, not a mechanical object used for measuring.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2137 on: July 09, 2015, 11:32:58 AM »

No, Alan, theology tells us nothing about how things work, all it does is to praise the entity it thinks created those things.  Anyone who looked into how things actually worked were persecuted for suggesting that God wasn't the answer!

Even Darwin, with one of the most important discoveries ever, was too afraid of the consequences of the Church accusing him of blasphemy that he held off putting it forward for 25 years - and that was less than 200 years ago, before that you could be put to death for it!
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2138 on: July 09, 2015, 11:37:40 AM »
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.
This is of course a sterling example of the human ability to employ doublethink, or the practice of simultaneously holding (at least two) incompatible and contradictory ideas.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2139 on: July 09, 2015, 11:38:06 AM »

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

You could make the same observations about a Grandfather Clock

Evolution is a continuously changing process, Alan, not a mechanical object used for measuring.
And intelligent manipulation has helped the Grandfather clock to evolve into modern day atomic clocks.   ;)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2140 on: July 09, 2015, 11:39:41 AM »
Clocks are not organic entities which reproduce though, Alan.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2141 on: July 09, 2015, 11:41:15 AM »
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.
This is of course a sterling example of the human ability to employ doublethink, or the practice of simultaneously holding (at least two) incompatible and contradictory ideas.
Please explain to me how you think scientific investigation and discovery are incompatible with theology.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2142 on: July 09, 2015, 11:43:51 AM »

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

You could make the same observations about a Grandfather Clock

Evolution is a continuously changing process, Alan, not a mechanical object used for measuring.
And intelligent manipulation has helped the Grandfather clock to evolve into modern day atomic clocks.   ;)

The obvious difference being that the clock didn't reproduce and evolve into something else, whereas that is precisely what living organisms do in evolution.

Are you really that blind to the difference? :o

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2143 on: July 09, 2015, 11:49:38 AM »
Clocks are not organic entities which reproduce though, Alan.
As I see it, clocks get enhanced by human intervention.  Organic entities get enhanced by divine intervention.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2144 on: July 09, 2015, 11:53:57 AM »
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.
This is of course a sterling example of the human ability to employ doublethink, or the practice of simultaneously holding (at least two) incompatible and contradictory ideas.
Please explain to me how you think scientific investigation and discovery are incompatible with theology.
It's not difficult, Alan.

The scientific endeavour is predicated on a number of things which are the direct opposite of theological 'thinking' (for want of a vastly better word, obviously).

The first is methodological naturalism, where supernaturalism - being the realm of undefined and unevidenced things doing undefined and unevidenced things, capriciously and gratuitously - is ignored.

The second is empiricism - sensory experience, direct or aided in some way (e.g. microscopes; telescopes), is the only accurate and reliable means of gathering information about the world.

A third is evidentialism - an idea is only as good as the quantity and quality of the empirical evidence in its favour. Evidence is king. Ideas have to win their place at the table not on the basis of authority or tradition but by how good they are, evidence-wise.

Fourth are the usual routines of science - testability, sometimes repeatability where applicable (it isn't, always), shareability (here's what I did; run the experiment again for yourself and see what happens), peer review (check my methods, results and thinking, please) and so forth.

There are others, but I should say that these are the most important ones which stand in clearest opposition to theology.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 12:08:15 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2145 on: July 09, 2015, 11:55:10 AM »
Clocks are not organic entities which reproduce though, Alan.
As I see it, clocks get enhanced by human intervention.

Evidence for that.

Quote
Organic entities get enhanced by divine intervention.
Absolutely no evidence for that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2146 on: July 09, 2015, 12:10:46 PM »
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.
This is of course a sterling example of the human ability to employ doublethink, or the practice of simultaneously holding (at least two) incompatible and contradictory ideas.
Please explain to me how you think scientific investigation and discovery are incompatible with theology.
It's not difficult, Alan.

The scientific endeavour is predicated on a number of things which are the direct opposite of theological 'thinking' (for want of a vastly better word, obviously).

The first is methodological naturalism, where supernaturalism - being the realm of undefined and unevidenced things doing undefined and unevidenced things, capriciously and gratuitously - is ignored.

The second is empiricism - sensory experience, direct or aided in some way (e.g. microscopes; telescopes), is the only accurate and reliable means of gathering information about the world.

A third is evidentialism - an idea is only as good as the quantity and quality of the empirical evidence in its favour. Evidence is king.

Fourth are the usual routines of science - testability, sometimes repeatability where applicable, shareability, peer review and so forth.

There are others, but I should say that these are the most important ones which stand in clearest opposition to theology.
Nothing you have stated contradicts my understanding of anything supernatural.  The supernatural is simply a means to interact with and manipulate the naturally occuring events we experience on earth, using the power of conscious free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2147 on: July 09, 2015, 12:13:17 PM »

No, Alan, theology tells us nothing about how things work, all it does is to praise the entity it thinks created those things.  Anyone who looked into how things actually worked were persecuted for suggesting that God wasn't the answer!

Even Darwin, with one of the most important discoveries ever, was too afraid of the consequences of the Church accusing him of blasphemy that he held off putting it forward for 25 years - and that was less than 200 years ago, before that you could be put to death for it!
Many prominent scientists thoughout history and in the present day are or were devout Christians.  Theology does not prevent scientific discovery and investigation.

Theology stifles discovery and investigation!  Those you mention had no choice, you were even forced to go to church up until a century or two go!

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2148 on: July 09, 2015, 01:25:24 PM »
  Organic entities get enhanced by divine intervention.

No they don't! They get 'enhanced' by genetic copying errors which better adapt them to the environment they find themselves in.

Don't you know how evolution works?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2149 on: July 09, 2015, 01:32:05 PM »
  Organic entities get enhanced by divine intervention.

No they don't! They get 'enhanced' by genetic copying errors which better adapt them to the environment they find themselves in.

Don't you know how evolution works?
No he doesn't, and he's not likely to find out either, Len.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.