Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I have been aware of the TalkOrigins website for many years, but remain unconvinced by the arguments put forward which suggest that the entire process of evolution did not require any form of intelligent intervention or guidance. 

Gravity is a predictable physical property of this universe, the effects of which can be accurately calculated using mathematics.

Evolution is based on similar predictable physical properties - chemical bonds between atoms and molecules, plus physical interactions with the environment.

ht

I think that's chemistry old son.

Everything is physics.

Apparently it could be mathematics.

[Enki]

Response to Mess 2256:

I suppose the reason why unguided evolution is so vehemently supported by the atheist community is because it is an essential keystone to support the belief that God does not exist.

Not in my case, Alan. It's the other way round. One of the reasons that leads me not to believe in any god(s)s is that both the process of evolution and the TOE do not need the input of any god at all. There are many other reasons, of course, which lead me to my present state of non belief.

Incidentally, I don't actually have a belief that 'God does not exist'. It is quite possible that God does exist. I simply see no reason or evidence to suggest that this is so. Simply by using assertion and incredulity(both of which you tend to do, Alan) is not really going to change my mind at all.

Whenever I dare to question the viability of so many beneficial mutations occuring by chance in the correct sequence I get shot down and accused of not understanding the theory of evolution.

You seem to be 'shot down' as you call it because you seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what evolution actually entails. Shaker has already given you a list of basic books which might help, but I really do doubt if you are willing, or even able to look at such a topic with an open mind.

[torridon]

In other words, Alan, you can't think how it works so you go back to the Bronze Age answer ... GODDIDIT !!!

Research and inquiry would have ended in 2000BC if everyone had thought like you!

I do not know how my conscious awareness works (apparently neither does anyone else), but I know what it does.  It perceives the collective content of my brain cells, and it also has the ability to interact with my brain to control my thought processes and invoke physical acts of free will.  If you wait for a materialistc explanation of conscious awareness, I feel that you (and many generations to come) will be waiting a long, long time.

We are developing increasing understanding of conscious awareness though. The fact that we have acheived limited thought control and telepathy through technology in an indicator of how fast research is moving in this area. We might achieve some form of consciousness in machines by the end of the century. People who work actually work in this field do not suffer from your truculent refusal to countenance future possibilites and the world's nay-sayers have a track record of having been proved wrong by those with positive attitudes and enquiring minds.

[torridon]

I suppose the reason why unguided evolution is so vehemently supported by the atheist community is because it is an essential keystone to support the belief that God does not exist.  Whenever I dare to question the viability of so many beneficial mutations occuring by chance in the correct sequence I get shot down and accused of not understanding the theory of evolution.

That'd be because you clearly don't understand the theory of evolution and your rationale, that an all powerful god who can create entire universes just by will power would be reduced to fiddling with his own creation by tweaking the odd mutation here and there to get a desired result is just bizarre.  Why did God not get it right in the first place ? What is wrong with just looking at the evidence and interpreting it honestly ? It seems you cannot look at anything in nature without imposing a childish fantasy overlay on it.

[Alan Burns]

Which means that you're an individual incapable of changing your mind when presented with new facts, in other words, a fundamentalist, a fanatic.

To be aware of the love of God as expresssed through Jesus, which surpasses all understanding, does not make me a fundamentalist fanatic.  I just wish to share this amazing discovery with others by helping them to see the truth and freely choose to follow Jesus.  It is not wishful thinking just to get a reward in heaven.  God's love is real - it can be found here and now.  I am just so thankful for the profound joy I have experienced and still experience every day of my life.  It is a joy which I do not deserve, but is given freely to me by God.  I do not need or seek eternal life - I am just so grateful for my life on this earth.  Anything more than this will be beyond my expectations.

[Shaker]

To be aware of the love of God as expresssed through Jesus, which surpasses all understanding, does not make me a fundamentalist fanatic.

Declaring that you are incapable of ever changing your mind or holding a different opinion does, though.

I just wish to share this amazing discovery with others by helping them to see the truth and freely choose to follow Jesus.

And how do you think that that's working out, over all?

[Leonard James]

To be aware of the love of God as expressed through Jesus, which surpasses all understanding,

It may surpass your understanding Alan, but it doesn't mine. Many brave people throughout history have given up their own lives for others, which in my book surpasses giving up your son's life.

....does not make me a fundamentalist fanatic.

It does if it has closed your mine to any other possibility.

 

I just wish to share this amazing discovery with others by helping them to see the truth and freely choose to follow Jesus.

Many other people are unable to believe the story, Alan, it needs a very credulous turn of mind.

It is not wishful thinking just to get a reward in heaven.

Possibly not, but it's a clever carrot to offer, isn't it?

 

God's love is real - it can be found here and now.

Only if people are gullible enough to swallow the story that you have. 

I am just so thankful for the profound joy I have experienced and still experience every day of my life.

Sounds almost as good as the joy I feel after having disentangled myself from the delusion.

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

...but is given freely to me by God.

No quite freely, my friend, there is a condition attached ... or had you forgotten?

I do not need or seek eternal life

Possibly not, but it's a nice encouragement ploy, isn't it?

 

I am just so grateful for my life on this earth.  Anything more than this will be beyond my expectations.

Which is just as well, because you aren't going to get it! 

[Alan Burns]

The 'love' the Biblical deity shows is a very weird definition of that word, much more like hatred!

What greater love could you have than someone laying down their life for you?

[BeRational]

The 'love' the Biblical deity shows is a very weird definition of that word, much more like hatred!

What greater love could you have than someone laying down their life for you?

He did not lay down his life though as the story goes!

I have had worse weekends

[torridon]

The 'love' the Biblical deity shows is a very weird definition of that word, much more like hatred!

What greater love could you have than someone laying down their life for you?

One life pales into insignificance compared to the countless taken by god in acts of indiscriminate violence.  I am guessing you'll be blind to that though courtesy of your massive selection bias.

[Leonard James]

The 'love' the Biblical deity shows is a very weird definition of that word, much more like hatred!

What greater love could you have than someone laying down their life for you?

For 3 days? Somebody who lays down their life permanently shows much greater love than "God".

[Leonard James]

Alan, mate, in the light of all these sensible opposition arguments, how can you cling to the idea that you are not fanatical?

[torridon]

To be aware of the love of God as expresssed through Jesus, which surpasses all understanding, does not make me a fundamentalist fanatic.  I just wish to share this amazing discovery with others by helping them to see the truth and freely choose to follow Jesus.  It is not wishful thinking just to get a reward in heaven.  God's love is real - it can be found here and now.  I am just so thankful for the profound joy I have experienced and still experience every day of my life.  It is a joy which I do not deserve, but is given freely to me by God.  I do not need or seek eternal life - I am just so grateful for my life on this earth.  Anything more than this will be beyond my expectations.

Well that's all very nice, but if this joy is somehow connected to or derives from the holding of various fantasy beliefs, or at least, that's how they look to me, then it isn't going to work is it ? To be convinced of something, we should expect convincing coherent reasoning based on a sound evidence base. We'd all like to be happy, but a happiness born of believing a whole bunch of wrong stuff ain't going to cut it.

[Alan Burns]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

[BeRational]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

[Alan Burns]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

Apparently it also happened to the writer of Psalm 139, several hundred years before Christ:

Psalm 139 verse 6:
Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

[BeRational]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

Apparently it also happened to the writer of Psalm 139, several hundred years before Christ:

Psalm 139 verse 6:
Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

Quite possibly.

People can suffer with mental health.

[ippy]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

It all exists inside your mind and all of the emotional stuff is self induced, a very, very sad person.

I would find people that seem to have a need of or for these ideas would make themselves far more acceptable to society in general if they didn't keep on trying to install these weird ideas, that haven't a shred of credible evidence to back them up, into the minds of vulnerable young children.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

It all exists inside your mind and all of the emotional stuff is self induced

It does indeed exist inside my mind.  That is where I exist, and my mind is my only knowledge of reality.  As to being self induced - it is hard to see how I could induce something which was beyond my understanding.

[BeRational]

It all exists inside your mind and all of the emotional stuff is self induced

It does indeed exist inside my mind.  That is where I exist, and my mind is my only knowledge of reality.  As to being self induced - it is hard to see how I could induce something which was beyond my understanding.

No, it's very simple.

[ippy]

It all exists inside your mind and all of the emotional stuff is self induced

It does indeed exist inside my mind.  That is where I exist, and my mind is my only knowledge of reality.  As to being self induced - it is hard to see how I could induce something which was beyond my understanding.

Sorry Alan couldn't help laughing that's ludicrous, you've induced yourself into the emotional stuff within the confines of your own mind, it's all a part of that self delusional tendency of yours.

Have you seen the film "The Wizard of Oz"? It closely describes the sort of world you're in, the only difference is you haven't pulled back the curtain yet.

ippy

[ekim]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

Apparently it also happened to the writer of Psalm 139, several hundred years before Christ:

Psalm 139 verse 6:
Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

It goes under various names like spiritual inebriation, divine madness, ecstasy, bliss and in Hinduism, ananda.  It's not exclusive to Biblical religions.  Be careful that your recommendations are not counter productive to others and that your experiences do not inflate your ego.

[floo]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

Apparently it also happened to the writer of Psalm 139, several hundred years before Christ:

Psalm 139 verse 6:
Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

It goes under various names like spiritual inebriation, divine madness, ecstasy, bliss and in Hinduism, ananda.  It's not exclusive to Biblical religions.  Be careful that your recommendations are not counter productive to others and that your experiences do not inflate your ego.

You make a good point. The human mind can create that state of being.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

To be aware of the love of God as expressed through Jesus, which surpasses all understanding,

It may surpass your understanding Alan, but it doesn't mine. Many brave people throughout history have given up their own lives for others, which in my book surpasses giving up your son's life.

....does not make me a fundamentalist fanatic.

It does if it has closed your mine to any other possibility.

 

I just wish to share this amazing discovery with others by helping them to see the truth and freely choose to follow Jesus.

Many other people are unable to believe the story, Alan, it needs a very credulous turn of mind.

It is not wishful thinking just to get a reward in heaven.

Possibly not, but it's a clever carrot to offer, isn't it?

 

God's love is real - it can be found here and now.

Only if people are gullible enough to swallow the story that you have. 

I am just so thankful for the profound joy I have experienced and still experience every day of my life.

Sounds almost as good as the joy I feel after having disentangled myself from the delusion.

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

...but is given freely to me by God.

No quite freely, my friend, there is a condition attached ... or had you forgotten?

I do not need or seek eternal life

Possibly not, but it's a nice encouragement ploy, isn't it?

 

I am just so grateful for my life on this earth.  Anything more than this will be beyond my expectations.

Which is just as well, because you aren't going to get it! 

You have got nothing worth getting Len...In comparison to what Alan has.

[ekim]

It is a joy which I do not deserve,

Why, have you done something particularly awful? 

The first thing which struck me when God revealed His love to me was that it was far too much to fully take in - I felt that I was just getting a glimpse of it.  I had not done anything awful, but I knew that I had not done anything good enough to deserve such love.  It overwhelmed me and brought me to tears.  It was a profound revelation which has been experienced by many other Christians I know, but I also know that there are still a great many Christians who have not had this experience yet, so I would reccommend to them to keep up the prayers and read the scriptures, then see what comes.

How do you know this was not some mental episode?

Apparently it also happened to the writer of Psalm 139, several hundred years before Christ:

Psalm 139 verse 6:
Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

It goes under various names like spiritual inebriation, divine madness, ecstasy, bliss and in Hinduism, ananda.  It's not exclusive to Biblical religions.  Be careful that your recommendations are not counter productive to others and that your experiences do not inflate your ego.

You make a good point. The human mind can create that state of being.

It probably depends upon what an individual considers the mind to be.  In some spiritual traditions it relates to a collection of states and activities like thinking, remembering, conceptualising, and some associated the heart with the emotional mind.  Conscious stillness of mind is generally associated with bliss, ecstasy etc. rather than mental efforts to try to create it.  When it 'arises' from apparently nowhere it can often feel empowering.  If that 'power' feeds into say unresolved mental/emotional states it can inflate those states, which is perhaps why the expression 'purity of heart' is often emphasised as a necessity.  The word enthusiasm come to mind .... en-theos-iasm (god within) .... religious enthusiasm can often drive others to distraction.