Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

A scientific "theory" is the Rolls Royce Billy Bollocks Gold Plated Robust idea of how things are. Then its tested to utter destruction by all or any scientists. If it stands up to scrutiny by what we know so far of anything it becomes "a bit of a goer" Unless of course it can be disproved. I think you will find thats what a theory is. So when all those religious people forever print "its only a theory" its much much more than that.

Nah! it isn't and that is why YOU and the OTHERS do not bring evidence to prove it..Arguments such as the posts made after mine DO NOT take away from anything I said...Just proves you and the others haven't a clue when it comes to the reality of the scientists and their THEORIES...

It is Sass who is clueless about science and religion!

I suspect that from her constant and vehement non-reality posts, she is subconsciously aware that something is amiss in her thinking, but her life-long allegiance to the Bible just won't let the the truth in.

[Shaker]

Whilst Shaker and yourself, Leonard,
Harp on about evolution it is perfectly clear that neither has a clue how it works.

Wait for the irony overload of the century - here it comes ... any minute now ... wait for it ... it's a doozy this one ... wait for it ... here it comes ...

It doesn't work because it is a theory.

There we go!

Shaker,

Shut up!

No, and you have a snowball's chance of making me. Given your illiterate rambling posts, the endless parroting of the Bible and the abject ignorance which must already be forcing the massed lexicographical ranks of the OED to search for a new definition of stupid because the existing terms aren't sufficient, you shut up. Since you are to reason, logic, evidence and common sense as Jimmy Savile was to childcare, spewing nothing but a regular dose of incoherent word-salad liberally larded with vast tracts of Bible cut-and-paste, you won't be missed.

[floo]

A scientific "theory" is the Rolls Royce Billy Bollocks Gold Plated Robust idea of how things are. Then its tested to utter destruction by all or any scientists. If it stands up to scrutiny by what we know so far of anything it becomes "a bit of a goer" Unless of course it can be disproved. I think you will find thats what a theory is. So when all those religious people forever print "its only a theory" its much much more than that.

Nah! it isn't and that is why YOU and the OTHERS do not bring evidence to prove it..Arguments such as the posts made after mine DO NOT take away from anything I said...Just proves you and the others haven't a clue when it comes to the reality of the scientists and their THEORIES...

It is Sass who is clueless about science and religion!

I suspect that from her constant and vehement non-reality posts, she is subconsciously aware that something is amiss in her thinking, but her life-long allegiance to the Bible just won't let the the truth in.

It is rather sad!

[Alan Burns]

I can look back on my life and honestly say that every major event in my life has been a profound answer to prayer going beyond all my expectations - my home, my education, my career, my wife, my children, my friends - but most of all my faith.

If the above is true, I'm beginning to get the idea that for some reason you didn't expect very much from life, you didn't have the normal hopes and dreams for the future that most youngsters have ... no doubt psychology has a name for such a condition.

So when things turned out to be normal for you, (that life is sometimes good to us and sometimes bad), you assumed the good parts were the result of prayers, and not the even-handed dealings of fate.

Would you say that is true?

I really don't know where to start in answer to this, Len.

I could write a book about the amazing answers to prayer that I have witnessed in my own life and in the lives of others.

I am not sure what you mean by a “normal life”, but I would like to illustrate just how God has helped me with my education and career.

I was born and brought up in Thorntree, a council housing estate in Middlesbrough, once classified as the third most deprived housing region in England out of over 8400 districts.  My parents were lovely, but not academics.  My father was a labourer in the steelworks and my mum was a part time cleaner.  I failed my eleven plus exam, and my future prospects looked bleak.  I started praying that I would not be a failure.  I prayed every evening.  I finished my academic period with a first class honours degree, a PhD, three best student awards (in Teesside Polytechnic), and a diploma award for an outstanding technical publication.  I started my career as an apprentice draughtsman, but my academic success enabled promotion to a senior development engineer, and I became involved in pioneering the development and implementation of computer aided design techniques in structural steelwork, travelling to the USA, Brazil, South Korea and Europe.  My career came to a sudden end in 2009 when my role in IT support was outsourced to India (after I had helped train the Indian engineers to do my job!).  When applying for new jobs I discovered that I had an outdated skill set and was too old to re-train, so I resigned myself to early retirement.  A few weeks into my "retirement" I get a phone call from an ex colleague asking me to team up with him as a technical partner in a new business venture.  It turns out to be a task which ideally suits my skills, being able to develop software free from the constraints and red tape imposed by big business.  So I have been able to set up and support a successful new business.

You are correct in assuming that I did not expect much from life.  I can take little credit for my successes, for they were all abundant answers to my prayers.  Underneath I am still an eleven plus failure from Thorntree who enjoys playing with train sets and building Meccano.

[Shaker]

I could write a book about the amazing answers to prayer that I have witnessed in my own life and in the lives of others.

Maybe some other time. For now, a post or posts here will do.

[wigginhall]

So Alan had a decent education and a decent job, and this shows that .... oh no, I can't go on with this, it's too gruesome.

[ekim]

Alan

Mankind has made many and varied efforts to reach some form of spiritual fulfilment, but most Christians I know will verify that it was God who called them into the knowledge of His presence.

From the outside you can make assumptions and apply whatever labels come to mind,

Your second statement appears to conflict with the first in the sense that from the outside you are making assumptions about 'most Christians I know will verify that it was God' etc.  Also this past statement of yours 'I do not think the human mind is capable of comprehending the true nature of God,' appears to nullify both of the above quotes.  How do you judge the inner experience of others, whether Christian or non Christian, and decide whether it is 'divine presence' or not, rather than some form of self delusion or the result of religious egotism?

1.  My comment about other Christians is based on conversations I have had with many fellow Christians.  When they witness to their faith story there is often a common theme that they felt it was God calling them - they were not actively seeking Him.

2.  Our human mind is not capable of comprehending the full nature of God, but we can comprehend the message given to us through Jesus Christ, who I believe to be God made man.

1.  ... and the same applies to those who endeavour to relate similar experiences when following other faiths.  It is quite likely that they will associate it with the culture they have grown up with.  As the inner experience of the individual is personal to them, I would suggest that it cannot be satisfactorily communicated to others with words.
Here are two attempts:
Love for God is naturally ardent and when it fills a man to overflowing, leads the soul to ecstasy.  Therefore the heart of a man who experiences it cannot contain or bear it, but undergoes an extraordinary change according to its own quality and the quality of the love which fills him. .... St. Isaac of Syria  .... Christian

When the source of immortal joy is opened within us, it flows and saturates every fibre of our being, internal and external, and makes our life at once a waveless peace and ceaseless thrill of ecstasy.  Death, fear and grief have then no significance for us. ....Swami Ramdas .... Hindu
 2.  Your belief is just that but how do you validate it?  There appears to be a teaching by Jesus but there is no necessity to associate it with a claim that he is/was God made man, as far as I can see.

I can only say that my faith is entirely verified by my two way relationship with God.  He gives me far more than I can ever give Him.  The answers to prayer are literally too numerous to count.  I can look back on my life and honestly say that every major event in my life has been a profound answer to prayer going beyond all my expectations - my home, my education, my career, my wife, my children, my friends - but most of all my faith.

Why does the deity answer your prayers, presumably positively, when it doesn't answer others of equal merit? Alan, the more you post the more in cloud cuckoo land you appear to be! 

Didn't Jesus say that he had come as a sword to separate family attachments?  Perhaps, Alan, it is those who have lost their home, career, wife, children, friends etc and still retain their faith, who would be in a stronger position to validate their claim.

1.   If you had understood the bible you would know that the truth divides... That the truth Christ brought would cause people to separate as it does the believers from the none believers here.

2.   The hope Christ has brought supports the believer when all things go wrong... Until you have tasted that which Christ gives you will make such statements as above. It shows you are far away from truth.

1. If you understood the truth you would know that belief divides...  The Jesus method of pursuing the truth separated those who were clinging to the traditions of the past and those who were prepared to follow the new teaching.

2.  The hope that most religious traditions bring supports the believer when things go wrong... when the hopeful are free from the sanctimonious statements of the self righteous perhaps they will move closer to the truth.

[ekim]

I can look back on my life and honestly say that every major event in my life has been a profound answer to prayer going beyond all my expectations - my home, my education, my career, my wife, my children, my friends - but most of all my faith.

If the above is true, I'm beginning to get the idea that for some reason you didn't expect very much from life, you didn't have the normal hopes and dreams for the future that most youngsters have ... no doubt psychology has a name for such a condition.

So when things turned out to be normal for you, (that life is sometimes good to us and sometimes bad), you assumed the good parts were the result of prayers, and not the even-handed dealings of fate.

Would you say that is true?

I really don't know where to start in answer to this, Len.

I could write a book about the amazing answers to prayer that I have witnessed in my own life and in the lives of others.

I am not sure what you mean by a “normal life”, but I would like to illustrate just how God has helped me with my education and career.

I was born and brought up in Thorntree, a council housing estate in Middlesbrough, once classified as the third most deprived housing region in England out of over 8400 districts.  My parents were lovely, but not academics.  My father was a labourer in the steelworks and my mum was a part time cleaner.  I failed my eleven plus exam, and my future prospects looked bleak.  I started praying that I would not be a failure.  I prayed every evening.  I finished my academic period with a first class honours degree, a PhD, three best student awards (in Teesside Polytechnic), and a diploma award for an outstanding technical publication.  I started my career as an apprentice draughtsman, but my academic success enabled promotion to a senior development engineer, and I became involved in pioneering the development and implementation of computer aided design techniques in structural steelwork, travelling to the USA, Brazil, South Korea and Europe.  My career came to a sudden end in 2009 when my role in IT support was outsourced to India (after I had helped train the Indian engineers to do my job!).  When applying for new jobs I discovered that I had an outdated skill set and was too old to re-train, so I resigned myself to early retirement.  A few weeks into my "retirement" I get a phone call from an ex colleague asking me to team up with him as a technical partner in a new business venture.  It turns out to be a task which ideally suits my skills, being able to develop software free from the constraints and red tape imposed by big business.  So I have been able to set up and support a successful new business.

You are correct in assuming that I did not expect much from life.  I can take little credit for my successes, for they were all abundant answers to my prayers.  Underneath I am still an eleven plus failure from Thorntree who enjoys playing with train sets and building Meccano.

A Muslim could site the story of Malala Yousafzai.

[savillerow]

Msg 2365 Floo, I agree, i think her(sassy) posts are getting more loud and desperate. A penny may be dropping here.

[Alan Burns]

Whilst Shaker and yourself, Leonard,
Harp on about evolution it is perfectly clear that neither has a clue how it works.

Wait for the irony overload of the century - here it comes ... any minute now ... wait for it ... it's a doozy this one ... wait for it ... here it comes ...

It doesn't work because it is a theory.

There we go!

Wow, just wow!
That needs a special kind of dumb!

Here is an interesting article written by someone who has a deep knowledge of how evolution is supposed to work:

http://www.acmsonline.org/journal/2004/Dembski-Natural%20selection.pdf

[Alan Burns]

If as you claim the deity helped you, why doesn't it help others?

I can only relate my own experiences.  What I can say is that it helps a great deal if you can actually believe in God's power when you make the prayer.

[Sassy]

Whilst Shaker and yourself, Leonard,
Harp on about evolution it is perfectly clear that neither has a clue how it works.
It doesn't work because it is a theory. A theory which still remains unproven. And neither of you could scientifically explain all the technical details involved nor can you understand it as scientist think it...

TRUTH... evolution is a load of rubbish in the face it has absolutely NO ANSWER to how the first life came into existence... Yeah we all flippin know evolution isn't about that but the truth is the bloody Oak tree evolution is flippin useless if you ain't got the answer to where the first acorn came from... if it was an acorn.....

Maybe you cannot see the value in it Sass, but to anyone with an interest in life, the TofE provides the profoundest of insights into how life works, so much so, that nothing in life sciences makes any sense except in the light of evolution.

What a stupid comment....

 

but to anyone with an interest in life,

As if, the theory of evolution really as ANYTHING to do with a persons personal interest or disinterest in life??

Life is not something you or anyone on the planet had a choice in.
It does not serve the matter of interest. But life is the subject ALL have an interest in on this planet because NO ONE knows how it got here.
May be for those with a real interest in reality we are not such pushovers to think life cannot be interesting if we do not have theory to cling to.

The fact is that we live in a constantly changing world, and the TofE describes the mechanisms by which life changes and adapts to changing circumstances.

No it doesn't....There is no evolution of man at all these days... Mans genes are not changing and by a process over so called millions of years you would think it would have perfected itself and the cells so no disease etc.

Truth is that there has been no evolving of man for over 2,000 years. Isn't if funny that evolution can only be applied to man in theory because it cannot be seen today or in the years since it became a theory to man.
May be some of us who believe in God can see what isn't there in what we can see.

There is no doubt much remaining to discover but that doesn't mean that the TofE is 'wrong', it means it is incomplete, and that applies to all areas of knowledge including our understanding of the pathways from geochemistry and biochemistry into biology.  Merely maintaining an attitude of denial will bring us no new insights.

Kidding ourselves won't make something appear that isn't there in the theory.
No real evidence of the theory of evolution. Man stopped suddenly evolving did it?

You kid yourself all you want... but it is always going to be a theory because as the thousands of years pass...Man will not evolve...

[Leonard James]

Thank you Alan for that detailed account of your life. Curiously, it parallels mine with respect to home conditions, parents and growing up. Both of us were lucky in the genetic lottery as far as intelligence is concerned, and did well at school. The only difference appears to be that you failed your 11 plus, whereas I went on to secondary school. Since you are clearly intelligent, I assume that your failure was due to either apathy or disinterest on your part.

You are correct in assuming that I did not expect much from life.

This is the phrase that led me to type the above comment! My own attitude was quite the opposite. I was determined to "get on".

I can take little credit for my successes, for they were all abundant answers to my prayers.

I can understand why you came to that conclusion, but feel that you were entirely mistaken. What happened was that the shock of failing your exam, shook you up to take an interest and try harder, and praying for help bolstered your efforts, placebo-wise.


 

Underneath I am still an eleven plus failure from Thorntree who enjoys playing with train sets and building Meccano.

Well my dear, underneath I am still quite juvenile in what amuses me, but many people are like that.

How does that all sound to you?

[Shaker]

Whilst Shaker and yourself, Leonard,
Harp on about evolution it is perfectly clear that neither has a clue how it works.

Wait for the irony overload of the century - here it comes ... any minute now ... wait for it ... it's a doozy this one ... wait for it ... here it comes ...

It doesn't work because it is a theory.

There we go!

Wow, just wow!
That needs a special kind of dumb!

Here is an interesting article written by someone who has a deep knowledge of how evolution is supposed to work:

http://www.acmsonline.org/journal/2004/Dembski-Natural%20selection.pdf

Dembski is a mathematician and theologian and well-known shill for creationism. Why would he know how evolution works, Alan?

[Sassy]

A scientific "theory" is the Rolls Royce Billy Bollocks Gold Plated Robust idea of how things are. Then its tested to utter destruction by all or any scientists. If it stands up to scrutiny by what we know so far of anything it becomes "a bit of a goer" Unless of course it can be disproved. I think you will find thats what a theory is. So when all those religious people forever print "its only a theory" its much much more than that.

Nah! it isn't and that is why YOU and the OTHERS do not bring evidence to prove it..Arguments such as the posts made after mine DO NOT take away from anything I said...Just proves you and the others haven't a clue when it comes to the reality of the scientists and their THEORIES...

It is Sass who is clueless about science and religion!

You who delivers one line statements but cannot back it up... I guess your also clueless about reality when it comes to others, Science and Religion and your posts show it...

[Shaker]

If as you claim the deity helped you, why doesn't it help others?

I can only relate my own experiences.  What I can say is that it helps a great deal if you can actually believe in God's power when you make the prayer.

That makes the confirmation/selection bias so much easier.

[Sassy]

Msg 2365 Floo, I agree, i think her(sassy) posts are getting more loud and desperate. A penny may be dropping here.

Fools seldom differ is what comes to mind when reading your reply to Floo.
You really think you could wind me up with such a stupid remark...
I am just sat here smiling at how you made yourself look as daft as floo by agreeing with her...

Go for it...knock yourself out. The difference between you, Floo and myself, is I know the bible and I understand what and who Christ is....

You want to come back and try harder when you have an idea between yourself and Floo which might work?

[Rhiannon]

Alan, your account makes me a bit sad. You came from a relatively disadvantaged start (although loving parents make a huge difference, as they did to my mother) to achieve really good things, yet you give yourself no credit. You must have worked incredibly hard to achieve what you did, aided by teachers and lecturers and work colleagues who believed and trusted in you. And yet you refuse to pat yourself on the back for it.

Let me tell you something. Educational establishments don't dish out qualifications as a response to messages from God but due to the hard work and skill of the student. Promotions and business opportunities come for the same reasons. You achieved really good things. You. I am a theist myself and I look to my gods for support and signs but no deity can study, take exams or do our work for us and if we choose to sit on our backsides god won't make these things fall in our laps. You deserve what you have because of your own hard work.

[Shaker]

He won't see it, though, Rhi. There's something about monotheism which combines the maximum of egoistic narcissism with the maximum of craven self-abnegation ("Not my own hard work, not my own efforts, but God") and you couldn't have a clearer example than the one with which Alan has furnished us.

It's truly tragic

[Shaker]

In 2010, 33 miners were trapped 2300 feet underground and three miles from the mine's entrance. Chile being a Catholic country, many prayers were said, so that when the men were rescued alive and mostly well after 69 days deep underground it was, inevitably, hailed by many as a miracle, God at work. This was a big story at the time; you may remember it.

What's less well known and seems to have received far less media attention was the very similar mining accident that took place at Pike River in New Zealand just a couple of months later. There, 29 miners and contractors were trapped deep underground after a methane explosion; following a series of further massive explosions, all perished.

Nobody seemed to want to talk about miracles and divine grace then, for some reason. So it goes.

[ippy]

Msg 2365 Floo, I agree, i think her(sassy) posts are getting more loud and desperate. A penny may be dropping here.

Fools seldom differ is what comes to mind when reading your reply to Floo.
You really think you could wind me up with such a stupid remark...
I am just sat here smiling at how you made yourself look as daft as floo by agreeing with her...

Go for it...knock yourself out. The difference between you, Floo and myself, is I know the bible and I understand what and who Christ is....

You want to come back and try harder when you have an idea between yourself and Floo which might work?

Just thought I'd remind you Sass, you still haven't come up with any credible evidence that would support the magical, mythical or superstitious parts of your manual yet; another long wait?

ippy

[floo]

When something good happens the deity is praised to the skies by some Christians. But when bad things occur they keep very quiet, or make the excuse that the deity sometimes says, 'NO', for the best of reasons of course!!

[Enki]

So Alan had a decent education and a decent job, and this shows that .... oh no, I can't go on with this, it's too gruesome.

I think I know what you mean, Wiggs. My immediate impression after reading his post was simply to say 'So.....?' in a bemused kind of way.

[Shaker]

When something good happens the deity is praised to the skies by some Christians. But when bad things occur they keep very quiet, or make the excuse that the deity sometimes says, 'NO', for the best of reasons of course!!

... which is a way of avoiding the, for many, deeply uncomfortable fact in so many, many ways our lives are ruled by randomness, chance, happenstance and accident, and that we are not in control anywhere near as much as we want to be. Trying to propitiate supernatural entities to make 2 + 2 not = 4 (as someone once defined prayer) is a way of trying to stack the deck of the universe in your favour.

[floo]

A scientific "theory" is the Rolls Royce Billy Bollocks Gold Plated Robust idea of how things are. Then its tested to utter destruction by all or any scientists. If it stands up to scrutiny by what we know so far of anything it becomes "a bit of a goer" Unless of course it can be disproved. I think you will find thats what a theory is. So when all those religious people forever print "its only a theory" its much much more than that.

Nah! it isn't and that is why YOU and the OTHERS do not bring evidence to prove it..Arguments such as the posts made after mine DO NOT take away from anything I said...Just proves you and the others haven't a clue when it comes to the reality of the scientists and their THEORIES...

It is Sass who is clueless about science and religion!

You who delivers one line statements but cannot back it up... I guess your also clueless about reality when it comes to others, Science and Religion and your posts show it...

Better a one line statement than your endless rambling nonsense!