Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Whilst Shaker and yourself, Leonard,
Harp on about evolution it is perfectly clear that neither has a clue how it works.

Wait for the irony overload of the century - here it comes ... any minute now ... wait for it ... it's a doozy this one ... wait for it ... here it comes ...

It doesn't work because it is a theory.

There we go!

Wow, just wow!
That needs a special kind of dumb!

Here is an interesting article written by someone who has a deep knowledge of how evolution is supposed to work:

http://www.acmsonline.org/journal/2004/Dembski-Natural%20selection.pdf

Dembski is a mathematician and theologian and well-known shill for creationism. Why would he know how evolution works, Alan?

If you take the trouble to read the article, you will find that he displays a very good knowledge of evolution theory.  The fact that creationists have latched on to his arguments to support their cause does not in itself detract from the logic of his arguments.

[Shaker]

If you take the trouble to read the article

Alas, I have, and it betrays all the expected poor writing and sloppy thinking for which Dembski is notorious and for which he has been repeatedly and brutally leathered by real scientists for years.

The fact that creationists have latched on to his arguments to support their cause does not in itself detract from the logic of his arguments.

It is not that creationists have latched onto somebody's non-creationist "arguments"; it's that he himself is an arch proponent, promoter of and propagandist for creationism.

[BashfulAnthony]

When something good happens the deity is praised to the skies by some Christians. But when bad things occur they keep very quiet, or make the excuse that the deity sometimes says, 'NO', for the best of reasons of course!!

... which is a way of avoiding the, for many, deeply uncomfortable fact in so many, many ways our lives are ruled by randomness, chance, happenstance and accident, and that we are not in control anywhere near as much as we want to be. Trying to propitiate supernatural entities to make 2 + 2 not = 4 (as someone once defined prayer) is a way of trying to stack the deck of the universe in your favour.

"Chance," indeed?  Well, I hope you are comfortable, being no more than an astronomical freak (emphasis on freak!), created by chance, living by chance.

[Shaker]

When something good happens the deity is praised to the skies by some Christians. But when bad things occur they keep very quiet, or make the excuse that the deity sometimes says, 'NO', for the best of reasons of course!!

... which is a way of avoiding the, for many, deeply uncomfortable fact in so many, many ways our lives are ruled by randomness, chance, happenstance and accident, and that we are not in control anywhere near as much as we want to be. Trying to propitiate supernatural entities to make 2 + 2 not = 4 (as someone once defined prayer) is a way of trying to stack the deck of the universe in your favour.

"Chance," indeed?  Well, I hope you are comfortable, being no more than an astronomical freak (emphasis on freak!), created by chance, living by chance.

Yes, I am. That's the way we all are; some recognise it, some concoct narratives which seek to deny it.

[BashfulAnthony]

When something good happens the deity is praised to the skies by some Christians. But when bad things occur they keep very quiet, or make the excuse that the deity sometimes says, 'NO', for the best of reasons of course!!

... which is a way of avoiding the, for many, deeply uncomfortable fact in so many, many ways our lives are ruled by randomness, chance, happenstance and accident, and that we are not in control anywhere near as much as we want to be. Trying to propitiate supernatural entities to make 2 + 2 not = 4 (as someone once defined prayer) is a way of trying to stack the deck of the universe in your favour.

"Chance," indeed?  Well, I hope you are comfortable, being no more than an astronomical freak (emphasis on freak!), created by chance, living by chance.

Yes, I am. That's the way we all are; some recognise it, some concoct narratives which seek to deny it.

What a sad and pitiful way to define your existence.

[Shaker]

It's factual reality and I see nothing sad about that.

Adults taking refuge in fairy stories and other narcotics - that's sad.

[Alan Burns]

If you take the trouble to read the article

Alas, I have, and it betrays all the expected poor writing and sloppy thinking for which Dembski is notorious and for which he has been repeatedly and brutally leathered by real scientists for years.

The fact that creationists have latched on to his arguments to support their cause does not in itself detract from the logic of his arguments.

It is not that creationists have latched onto somebody's non-creationist "arguments"; it's that he himself is an arch proponent, promoter of and propagandist for creationism.

I have read much of the "brutal leathering" given by the so called "real scientists" and I am afraid it is they who demonstrate their substantial ability at sloppy thinking.

[Leonard James]

It's factual reality and I see noghing sad about that.

Adults taking refuge in fairy stories and other narcotics - that's sad.

As well as extremely stupid.

[Shaker]

I have read much of the "brutal leathering" given by the so called "real scientists" and I am afraid it is they who demonstrate their substantial ability at sloppy thinking.

Give us an example, do.

[BashfulAnthony]

It's factual reality and I see noghing sad about that.

Adults taking refuge in fairy stories and other narcotics - that's sad.

Back to the playground "rhetoric," when without an adequate answer.  And just what do you mean by "refuge in narcotics?"

[Shaker]

There's a perfectly adequate answer. It relies on a lot of genetics, a lot of maths and statistics and a large dose of simple common sense, all of which sum to the fact that we are all inescapably, at the levels of both nature (genetic makeup) and nurture (life experiences), thoroughly accidental and contingent beings who by sheer chance could have been otherwise or never have been at all.

A narcotic is anything that eases discomfort, numbs the critical faculties, deadens the perception of reality and in large doses induces stupor.

[BashfulAnthony]

There's a perfectly adequate answer. It relies on a lot of genetics, a lot of maths and statistics and a large dose of simple common sense, all of which sum to the fact that we are all inescapably, at the levels of both nature (genetic makeup) and nurture (life experiences), thoroughly accidental and contingent beings who by sheer chance could have been otherwise or never have been at all.

A narcotic is anything that eases discomfort, numbs the critical faculties, deadens the perception of reality and in large doses induces stupor.

And are you, in some bizarre twist, saying that people who believe in God do so because they are are influenced by drugs?     

[Shaker]

And are you, in some bizarre twist, saying that people who believe in God do so because they are are influenced by drugs?   

No, no, no - goodness me, the curse of the literal mind.

No, I'm saying that for many, many, many people belief in a god acts in a manner akin to a narcotic on the intellectual and emotional levels. This sort of belief provides some stonkingly powerful narratives that many humans find absolutely enchanting and desirable - that someone (really has to be a -one and not a -thing to work), somewhere knows what's going on and is ultimately in control; that one's very existence was in some sense preordained, even willed, rather than being the chance collision of accidental elements. And so forth.

[torridon]

"Chance," indeed?  Well, I hope you are comfortable, being no more than an astronomical freak (emphasis on freak!), created by chance, living by chance.

Yes, I am. That's the way we all are; some recognise it, some concoct narratives which seek to deny it.

What a sad and pitiful way to define your existence.

The fact is, that the odds on 'you' having been born are astronomically remote. You are the one sperm out of literally millions that got lucky

[BashfulAnthony]

And are you, in some bizarre twist, saying that people who believe in God do so because they are are influenced by drugs?   

No, no, no - goodness me, the curse of the literal mind.

No, I'm saying that for many, many, many people belief in a god acts in a manner akin to a narcotic on the intellectual and emotional levels. This sort of belief provides some stonkingly powerful narratives that many humans find absolutely enchanting and desirable - that someone (really has to be a -one and not a -thing to work), somewhere knows what's going on and is ultimately in control; that one's very existence was in some sense preordained, even willed, rather than being the chance collision of accidental elements. And so forth.

Nothing to do with a "literal mind."  I can only read a one-liner and accept it at face value.

As to the rest of your answer, to use the technical term:  balderdash!

[Shaker]

Well, I suppose that saved a lot of typing, didn't it?

[wigginhall]

"Chance," indeed?  Well, I hope you are comfortable, being no more than an astronomical freak (emphasis on freak!), created by chance, living by chance.

Yes, I am. That's the way we all are; some recognise it, some concoct narratives which seek to deny it.

What a sad and pitiful way to define your existence.

The fact is, that the odds on 'you' having been born are astronomically remote. You are the one sperm out of literally millions that got lucky

And many occurrences are the same, aren't they?  Just ordinary day to day occurrences are pretty unlikely, I would think.   For example, I bump into an old friend on the underground in London - do some Christians think that this is not chance?  I suppose some say that it is known beforehand by God - well, he ain't telling us first!

[savillerow]

Msg 2383 sassy I still think that penny is there. . . . . . .waiting.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, I suppose that saved a lot of typing, didn't it?

Well, it saved a lot of typing in that it would have been answering nonsense.

[Shaker]

... which you are curiously, but obviously, unable to answer.

[wigginhall]

It's quite interesting that there seems to be this horror of chance among some theists, as if it makes life meaningless.   But the consequences of arguing against chance are bizarre really - for example, does this mean that things are planned?   Thus, the moon ended up in its orbit, because God put it there?  Gulp.

[BashfulAnthony]

... which you are curiously, but obviously, unable to answer.

You are confusing "unable to answer" with, "not worth answering!"

[Rhiannon]

The randomness of life makes it more precious for me. I have so much to be thankful for. The idea that I was created this way in a predetermined life with all the blessings that I have by a loving god yet the same god created others differently and in enormous suffering is insane. To accept such an idea smacks of spoilt entitlement.

[floo]

The randomness of life makes it more precious for me. I have so much to be thankful for. The idea that I was created this way in a predetermined life with all the blessings that I have by a loving god yet the same god created others differently and in enormous suffering is insane. To accept such an idea smacks of spoilt entitlement.

I agree.

[wigginhall]

The randomness of life makes it more precious for me. I have so much to be thankful for. The idea that I was created this way in a predetermined life with all the blessings that I have by a loving god yet the same god created others differently and in enormous suffering is insane. To accept such an idea smacks of spoilt entitlement.

Yes, it seems very bizarre to me, and as you say, horribly narcissistic.   Oh lucky me, that I was born white and affluent and had a good education, but hang on, it wasn't luck, it was God himself who bestowed these things on me, while little kids in Mali or wherever are born into extreme poverty and probably illness and malnutrition.  Oh well, God has decided to test them, or maybe they are not praying hard enough or they're not Christians.   This is going beyond theism into some kind of cult-like conspiracy theory, a bit like David Icke.   It's both sentimental and vicious really.