Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

I think the concept of a soul or spirit is very important - we neglect that part of us at our peril. It's important I feel to understand that it isn't 'merely' part of our physiology but actually very important to our wellbeing on every level. Arguing about any additional supernatural properties it may have just clouds the issue and leads to 'spirituality' being sneered at by both sides of the debate.

[Leonard James]

But it would show how pointless human life is, and our awareness of it.  There is much, much more to life than evolution.

Of course there is. Life is a song we have to sing from birth to death. Some of it is sad, some joyful and some just routine. Whether or not there is any point to life depends entirely on you.

Live the best way you know how, helping your fellow man and not hurting him, and caring for the environment. Anybody who needs more point to his life than that is being self-centred and greedy.

Len, You obviously have a capacity to enjoy life, but what is it inside you that appreciates it?  Is it a few happy atoms, or is it your spiritual soul?

I suppose by 'what is it inside you' you mean how does my brain register feelings. I honestly have no idea ... you would have to ask a neurologist, although I strongly doubt such knowledge is yet available.

Anybody else out there know?

[Alan Burns]

But I don't consider my own life to be pointless, Alan. I have, amongst the trials and stresses that have accompanied my life, enjoyed countless moments of fulfillment and enjoyment, just like many others. To consider that my life will one day end in oblivion does not mean that my life has no meaning. Satisfaction comes from the meaning and focus that I am capable of imprinting on it. I know that you need some outside agency to create some sort of fulfilment in your life, but that doesn't mean that others have to be like you. I quite accept that for you, your faith is a bedrock which would make you feel desolate if it was taken away but why can't you accept that others may find their own sense of meaning in so many different ways.

All sorts of experiences give my life meaning. Obviously the friendship and love that is felt in the various relationships I have is one important factor. But there are many others, too.

Consider, for instance, my fascination with the natural world, and all that I have absorbed from it. My focus has been on birdwatching, and, because of this, I have been privileged to visit many countries and have probably seen about a third of the world's known species. I have seen at first hand, delighted in and learnt from so many experiences associated with this. I won't bore you with the details as my experiences are really only pertinent to me, and I quite accept that they may mean very little to another person.

Or consider my working life when I was a teacher, and, through my enthusiasm and knowledge, tried to convey some of that to my pupils, whilst encouraging their challenging and enquiring minds. The fact that I helped awaken an interest in Maths or English in some of those pupils, for instance, I found, as with many teachers, a rewarding and meaningful experience.

Or consider the present where my wife and I run two dance sessions a week(modern ballroom and modern sequence) for the older generation. The obvious enjoyment this gives to others as well as ourselves creates its own meaning, too.

And, for me, none of the meaning or satisfaction that I feel, has any association with any god at all. It comes from my own mind, and my best explanation of it comes from the idea of evolution through natural selection.

People like you,(and I have met a fair number), find it so difficult to understand and appreciate that other paths though life are available which are just as valid for each individual as the one that you follow.

I am not denying that life is pointless, I would say quite the opposite.  I fully agree that there is lots to appreciate in our lives, but I can't imagine how such appreciation can come to exist in a survival machine produced by the natural selection process.  The ability to perceive things of beauty is a wonderful gift which is unique to humans, and it can't be defined by science, and it did not come from evolution.

[torridon]

But it would show how pointless human life is, and our awareness of it.  There is much, much more to life than evolution.

Of course there is. Life is a song we have to sing from birth to death. Some of it is sad, some joyful and some just routine. Whether or not there is any point to life depends entirely on you.

Live the best way you know how, helping your fellow man and not hurting him, and caring for the environment. Anybody who needs more point to his life than that is being self-centred and greedy.

Len, You obviously have a capacity to enjoy life, but what is it inside you that appreciates it?  Is it a few happy atoms, or is it your spiritual soul?

The atoms which deal with human emotions inside the brain!

Depends what you mean by the word "deal".  I can understand the atoms reacting in some way to give signals to other atoms, but how can a group of atoms become an emotion?

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

[Leonard James]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Maybe there is a dog god and a dog satan.

[jjohnjil]

Having just read those two posts from Enki and Rhiannon makes it almost impossible to understand how anyone needs to think a guy was suffocated to death on two lumps of wood to make their lives worthwhile.

Thank you so much, you two.

[Alan Burns]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Your labrador displays reactions which we interpret to be emotional responses, but unless you can enter the mind of your labrador, you can't be certain that it is the same type of emotional response as perceived in humans.

[torridon]

I am not denying that life is pointless, I would say quite the opposite.  I fully agree that there is lots to appreciate in our lives, but I can't imagine how such appreciation can come to exist in a survival machine produced by the natural selection process.  The ability to perceive things of beauty is a wonderful gift which is unique to humans, and it can't be defined by science, and it did not come from evolution.

Incorrect.  Flowers evolved beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators long before humans came along to admire them. A sense of aesthetics is not some unique-to-humans thing that popped up out of nowhere, many higher creatures will have some degree of it; humans have developed it to a greater degree, is all.

[torridon]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Your labrador displays reactions which we interpret to be emotional responses, but unless you can enter the mind of your labrador, you can't be certain that it is the same type of emotional response as perceived in humans.

You're correct in that we can't be certain of that. But it is the reasonable position, so stop being evasive and bear witness honestly to the reasonable position otherwise I'm going to have to set you another dog kicking challenge 

[Alan Burns]

Incorrect.  Flowers evolved beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators long before humans came along to admire them. A sense of aesthetics is not some unique-to-humans thing that popped up out of nowhere, many higher creatures will have some degree of it; humans have developed it to a greater degree, is all.

Last week I noticed a group of bees buzzing around the very dull grey tops of the raspberry bushes in my garden, and ignoring all the colourful flowers!

[wigginhall]

Nice post, enki.  It seems so arrogant of some theists to start telling others that their life is pointless.   It's also ridiculous, as if they could see into someone else's life and judge it.   And once again, the narcissism is breathtaking - 'because you don't have my view of God and so on, therefore I pronounce that your life is pointless'.   Get real and stop judging others.

I don't think it has anything  to do with narcissism.  You always have to put the worst slant on what a theist says, as though you are the fount of all knowledge!

Quite incorrect.  I am interested in the ideas of many theists, for example, I read quite a lot of the Christian mystics, and also other religions.  But this idea that unless you have the same ideas as me about God, your life is pointless, is absurd.   And narcissistic, yes, because it rejects pluralism and different points of view.

[Leonard James]

Incorrect.  Flowers evolved beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators long before humans came along to admire them. A sense of aesthetics is not some unique-to-humans thing that popped up out of nowhere, many higher creatures will have some degree of it; humans have developed it to a greater degree, is all.

Last week I noticed a group of bees buzzing around the very dull grey tops of the rasberry bushes in my garden, and ignoring all the colourful flowers!

Oh for goodness' sake, Alan. Colour and shape are only two of the things that attract bees ...perfume plays a big part, too. Nature is cleverer than you  give it credit for.

[floo]

But it would show how pointless human life is, and our awareness of it.  There is much, much more to life than evolution.

Of course there is. Life is a song we have to sing from birth to death. Some of it is sad, some joyful and some just routine. Whether or not there is any point to life depends entirely on you.

Live the best way you know how, helping your fellow man and not hurting him, and caring for the environment. Anybody who needs more point to his life than that is being self-centred and greedy.

Len, You obviously have a capacity to enjoy life, but what is it inside you that appreciates it?  Is it a few happy atoms, or is it your spiritual soul?

The atoms which deal with human emotions inside the brain!

Depends what you mean by the word "deal".  I can understand the atoms reacting in some way to give signals to other atoms, but how can a group of atoms become an emotion?

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Agreed!

[wigginhall]

Actually, if you have a garden, you find that as different plants come into flower, the bees and other insects congregate on them.   Many herbs are flowering right now, and are covered in insects, but the blackberries are turning to fruit, so the bees are not on them, whereas before they were all over them.  It's fascinating to watch this sequence go on, also I think bumble bees and honey bees seem to go for different flowers, possibly to do with size.   But obviously flowers have evolved to attract insects, via colour, pattern, scent, and so on.  (And some hybridized flowers don't attract insects, as we have taken the guts out of them).

[Rhiannon]

Something on bee foraging here.

http://www.bumblebee.org/thesis/thesis.pdf

[Rhiannon]

Dog emotion.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience

Actually we can measure that dogs have emotional responses. They have oxytocin for one thing. They just don't have the more complex social emotions such as pride and guilt. And they don't have contempt either.

Bet cats do though. 

[Alan Burns]

Flowers evolved beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators long before humans came along to admire them. A sense of aesthetics is not some unique-to-humans thing that popped up out of nowhere, many higher creatures will have some degree of it; humans have developed it to a greater degree, is all.

But humans are unique in appreciating beauty for its own sake, rather than for a specific purpose such as pollinating.

[Leonard James]

But humans are unique in appreciating beauty for its own sake, rather than for a specific purpose such as pollinating.

Wrong! Many men fall for the physical attraction (beauty) of a woman and then pollinate her.

[ippy]

Flowers evolved beauty to appeal to bees and other pollinators long before humans came along to admire them. A sense of aesthetics is not some unique-to-humans thing that popped up out of nowhere, many higher creatures will have some degree of it; humans have developed it to a greater degree, is all.

But humans are unique in appreciating beauty for its own sake, rather than for a specific purpose such as pollinating.

Alan you're taking your mind to some very strange places, without a good reason to do so.

The only evidence you have for your strange beliefs is inside your own head/mind; it's not available elsewhere.

ippy 

[Shaker]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Your labrador displays reactions which we interpret to be emotional responses, but unless you can enter the mind of your labrador, you can't be certain that it is the same type of emotional response as perceived in humans.

It never ceases to amaze that some theists, when cornered, will take bending over backwards to spine-snapping lengths and exhibit a level of critical scepticism which wouldn't disgrace any atheist ... but never about the content of their beliefs.

[Shaker]

But humans are unique in appreciating beauty for its own sake, rather than for a specific purpose such as pollinating.

Wrong! Many men fall for the physical attraction (beauty) of a woman and then pollinate her.

Well I've never heard it called that before!

[Rhiannon]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Your labrador displays reactions which we interpret to be emotional responses, but unless you can enter the mind of your labrador, you can't be certain that it is the same type of emotional response as perceived in humans.

It never ceases to amaze that some theists, when cornered, will take bending over backwards to spine-snapping lengths and exhibit a level of critical scepticism which wouldn't disgrace any atheist ... nut never about the content of their beliefs.

Not least because we can actually measure the degree to which a dog's emotions mirror ours - hormonal responses, brain patterns etc. They even have right/left brain responses. A dog's emotional development is similar to that of a two year old child.

But Alan seems to be ignoring that.

[Leonard James]

But humans are unique in appreciating beauty for its own sake, rather than for a specific purpose such as pollinating.

Wrong! Many men fall for the physical attraction (beauty) of a woman and then pollinate her.

Well I've never heard it called that before!

It's certainly more fun than the bees have, they don't even know they're doing it. 

[wigginhall]

My labrador has emotions.  It wags its tail when it is happy; it snarls when it feels anger. If I need a soul to feel emotions, then my Labrador must have a soul also.

Your labrador displays reactions which we interpret to be emotional responses, but unless you can enter the mind of your labrador, you can't be certain that it is the same type of emotional response as perceived in humans.

It never ceases to amaze that some theists, when cornered, will take bending over backwards to spine-snapping lengths and exhibit a level of critical scepticism which wouldn't disgrace any atheist ... nut never about the content of their beliefs.

That's a very good point.  Alan is hyper-skeptical about those ideas which don't fit his paradigm, e.g. animals having feelings, but his skepticism falls away when he addresses his own ideas.   For example, his skepticism towards animals' feelings is probably not matched by skepticism towards other humans having minds, since that fits in with his paradigm.  So he would not say, you can't enter someone else's mind, so maybe they don't have one.   Of course, there is a long tradition of discussion about this, theory of mind, inference, and so on. 

[Shaker]

Theory of mind is exactly what I had in mind, so to speak.