Searching for GOD...

[floo]

Hi Alan, a thought has just come to my mind about "heaven". What happens about all the infants and young children who die before reaching maturity ... do they simply continue as they are or do they somehow grow up after reaching heaven? How will their parents, who lost them as babies, recognise them again?

Good question.

If heaven exits and is perfect paradise, wouldn't it get very boring after a while, if we have the personalities as we have in this life?

[ippy]

Hi Alan, a thought has just come to my mind about "heaven". What happens about all the infants and young children who die before reaching maturity ... do they simply continue as they are or do they somehow grow up after reaching heaven? How will their parents, who lost them as babies, recognise them again?

Good question.

If heaven exits and is perfect paradise, wouldn't it get very boring after a while, if we have the personalities as we have in this life?

I like this view of yours Floo, just think for a moment, say if you like me were perfect in every way never saying a word out of place, always doing the right thing, supporting every charity, always every hair in place, devastatingly good looking; just think how about every one that had any dealings with us would be so pissed off with that pair of goody two shoes.

Suppose we were to go to the heaven that Alan, really thinks exists, without having any valid reason, we'd both be doubly perfect there and so would everybody else, I can't think of anything less satisfying or more mind numbingly boring; no thanks and when thinking about it for about a half of a millisecond, how come the religious believers can't see the stupidity of the heaven idea, it's so obvious that it's non runner, a stupid idea

ippy     

[Alan Burns]

Hi Alan, a thought has just come to my mind about "heaven". What happens about all the infants and young children who die before reaching maturity ... do they simply continue as they are or do they somehow grow up after reaching heaven? How will their parents, who lost them as babies, recognise them again?

The Gospel story of the resurrected Jesus suggests that our heavenly body may be quite different to our earthly body.  When He appeared after the resurrection His disciples and followers failed to recognise Him until He spoke, or broke the bread.  And He indicated that His resurrected body was not yet ready for touching when Martha or Mary tried to embrace Him.

[Alan Burns]

Suppose we were to go to the heaven that Alan, really thinks exists, without having any valid reason, we'd both be doubly perfect there and so would everybody else, I can't think of anything less satisfying or more mind numbingly boring; no thanks and when thinking about it for about a half of a millisecond, how come the religious believers can't see the stupidity of the heaven idea, it's so obvious that it's non runner, a stupid idea

ippy     

I knew of a nun who was lying critically ill, with a few nuns beside her.  She lost consciousness and appeared to be passing away, but then opened her eyes and started sobbing uncontolably.  The other nuns asked her if she was in pain, but she said "no".  When pressed all she could say was "It was so wonderful".  The other nuns, realising that she must have had a heavenly experience asked her "What was it like?".  But she could not describe her experience, just repeated, "It was so wonderful".

[ippy]

Suppose we were to go to the heaven that Alan, really thinks exists, without having any valid reason, we'd both be doubly perfect there and so would everybody else, I can't think of anything less satisfying or more mind numbingly boring; no thanks and when thinking about it for about a half of a millisecond, how come the religious believers can't see the stupidity of the heaven idea, it's so obvious that it's non runner, a stupid idea

ippy     

I knew of a nun who was lying critically ill, with a few nuns beside her.  She lost consciousness and appeared to be passing away, but then opened her eyes and started sobbing uncontolably.  The other nuns asked her if she was in pain, but she said "no".  When pressed all she could say was "It was so wonderful".  The other nuns, realising that she must have had a heavenly experience asked her "What was it like?".  But she could not describe her experience, just repeated, "It was so wonderful".

And?

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

Hi Alan, a thought has just come to my mind about "heaven". What happens about all the infants and young children who die before reaching maturity ... do they simply continue as they are or do they somehow grow up after reaching heaven? How will their parents, who lost them as babies, recognise them again?

Good question.

If heaven exits and is perfect paradise, wouldn't it get very boring after a while, if we have the personalities as we have in this life?

I like this view of yours Floo, just think for a moment, say if you like me were perfect in every way never saying a word out of place, always doing the right thing, supporting every charity, always every hair in place, devastatingly good looking; just think how about every one that had any dealings with us would be so pissed off with that pair of goody two shoes.

Suppose we were to go to the heaven that Alan, really thinks exists, without having any valid reason, we'd both be doubly perfect there and so would everybody else, I can't think of anything less satisfying or more mind numbingly boring; no thanks and when thinking about it for about a half of a millisecond, how come the religious believers can't see the stupidity of the heaven idea, it's so obvious that it's non runner, a stupid idea

ippy     

You have no imagination, or ability to think out of the box:  indeed, very little ability to think, full stop. 

[King Oberon]

Well a shit load of imagination, and thinking right out the box (almost off the planet) is what your going to need to believe in fairy stories and gods that's for sure 

I compliment your abundance of both traits BA

May your delusions be with you........ always 

[BashfulAnthony]

Well a shit load of imagination, and thinking right out the box (almost off the planet) is what your going to need to believe in fairy stories and gods that's for sure 

I compliment your abundance of both traits BA

May your delusions be with you........ always 

Billions have those characteristics, but those who don't, like you, don't understand what it means anyway  -  they don't have the imagination!   

[floo]

Well a shit load of imagination, and thinking right out the box (almost off the planet) is what your going to need to believe in fairy stories and gods that's for sure 

I compliment your abundance of both traits BA

May your delusions be with you........ always 

Imagination is all some people have, they cannot see how illogical some of their statements are.

A couple of this forum's most ludicrously illogical posters claim to have been teachers. If that is true, did they fake their qualifications, or qualify at a time when standards aren't as high as today? I thank my lucky stars my kids weren't subjected to their 'teaching'.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well a shit load of imagination, and thinking right out the box (almost off the planet) is what your going to need to believe in fairy stories and gods that's for sure 

I compliment your abundance of both traits BA

May your delusions be with you........ always 

Imagination is all some people have, they cannot see how illogical some of their statements are.

A couple of this forum's most ludicrously illogical posters claim to have been teachers. If that is true, did they fake their qualifications, or qualify at a time when standards aren't as high as today? I thank my lucky stars my kids weren't subjected to their 'teaching'.

That really is a despicable slur, and from someone whose appreciation of any issue is so sadly lacking.  Maybe you were one of those unfortunate enough to be taught by such teachers:  that might explain a lot!   

[torridon]

You don't believe that other animals are mechanical zombies with no inner feelings though.  You believe that they do experience pain, they do experience fear, that they do experience excitement. It is because you entertain these beliefs that you feel uncomfortable to abuse animals. So why pretend otherwise on these boards ? We deserve better from you.

I do not know what form of consciousness (if any) God has given to animals, but from observation of their behaviour, I would assume that they are not capable of free thought and free will.  They seem to be driven entirely by built in instincts and learnt experience.

That still leaves you to face up to the fact that your original claim, that conscious perception requires an inner (supernatural) perceiver is wrong unless you admit that other animals also have a similar supernatural entity inside them.  Clearly, when animals are not sleeping or hibernating, they are awake and having some form of conscious experience. We cannot know what the quality of that experience is of course, but we cannot reasonably doubt that they are having some form of experience; when their eyes are open, they are experiencing sight, when they haven't eaten for a while, they experience hunger, when they see a predator bearing down on them, they experience fear. Your explanatory rationale for all this, that there is some invisible unevidenced supernatural perceiver inside just raises more problems than it solves imv.

[ekim]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

[Dicky Underpants]

Nietzsche said it? Then it must be right!

No, that would be an argument from authority. But with a mind of that calibre, you stand a better chance of something being correct than a beardy-weirdy poltroon such as Tolstoy.

Mind you, Tolstoy said, "Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal."

He said a great many idiotic things, more so as he edged toward the end of his life.

I believe he stopped washing, or cleaning his teeth, because he thought this was more "Christian". In other respects, he became just a silly biblical literalist.

[Shaker]

Suppose we were to go to the heaven that Alan, really thinks exists, without having any valid reason, we'd both be doubly perfect there and so would everybody else, I can't think of anything less satisfying or more mind numbingly boring; no thanks and when thinking about it for about a half of a millisecond, how come the religious believers can't see the stupidity of the heaven idea, it's so obvious that it's non runner, a stupid idea

ippy     

I knew of a nun who was lying critically ill, with a few nuns beside her.  She lost consciousness and appeared to be passing away, but then opened her eyes and started sobbing uncontolably.  The other nuns asked her if she was in pain, but she said "no".  When pressed all she could say was "It was so wonderful".  The other nuns, realising that she must have had a heavenly experience asked her "What was it like?".  But she could not describe her experience, just repeated, "It was so wonderful".

That sounds pretty much exactly like the massive release of endorphins and even DMT attendant upon death (or rather, near death) in some cases.

[Alan Burns]

That still leaves you to face up to the fact that your original claim, that conscious perception requires an inner (supernatural) perceiver is wrong unless you admit that other animals also have a similar supernatural entity inside them.  Clearly, when animals are not sleeping or hibernating, they are awake and having some form of conscious experience. We cannot know what the quality of that experience is of course, but we cannot reasonably doubt that they are having some form of experience; when their eyes are open, they are experiencing sight, when they haven't eaten for a while, they experience hunger, when they see a predator bearing down on them, they experience fear. Your explanatory rationale for all this, that there is some invisible unevidenced supernatural perceiver inside just raises more problems than it solves imv.

I fully agree that the biological consciousness you assume human beings have also applies to animals.  Perhaps it would make things clearer if I described the human variety as spiritual consciouness, which allows the self awareness of the human soul to drive our thoughts and free will.

[Shaker]

More coal for the woo machine at the double - now it's not just biological consciousness, there's spiritual consciousness!

[Nearly Sane]

More coal for the woo machine at the double - now it's not just biological consciousness, there's spiritual consciousness!

Which again is only an assertion - perhaps this relates back to Alan's idea that have consciousness you need to be able to read a book and dyslexics are just spiritually blind.

[Alan Burns]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

That seems typical of a machine type programmed reaction in auto pilot mode, done with little conscious thought.  Computers are capable of much faster reactions than humans, because they do not ponder about things, they just react.  The chimp aptly demonstrates that it can react in a computer-like fashion.

[Alan Burns]

More coal for the woo machine at the double - now it's not just biological consciousness, there's spiritual consciousness!

Which again is only an assertion - perhaps this relates back to Alan's idea that have consciousness you need to be able to read a book and dyslexics are just spiritually blind.

Just to correct your logic - my assertion that you need conscious awareness to read a book does NOT imply that people who can't read for whatever reason do not have conscious awareness.

[Nearly Sane]

More coal for the woo machine at the double - now it's not just biological consciousness, there's spiritual consciousness!

Which again is only an assertion - perhaps this relates back to Alan's idea that have consciousness you need to be able to read a book and dyslexics are just spiritually blind.

Just to correct your logic - my assertion that you need conscious awareness to read a book does NOT imply that people who can't read for whatever reason do not have conscious awareness.

then it is an entirely useless statement in the context. What you are seeking to do is define a limit to what your made up term applies. Not that that would appear to be anything with any form of definition other than entirely circular assertions

[Nearly Sane]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

That seems typical of a machine type programmed reaction in auto pilot mode, done with little conscious thought.  Computers are capable of much faster reactions than humans, because they do not ponder about things, they just react.  The chimp aptly demonstrates that it can react in a computer-like fashion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/viral-video/11306466/Watch-Monkey-saves-dying-friend-at-train-station-in-India.html

[torridon]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

That's awesome. It's one thing to learn that eagles have so much better eyesight than us, or that our sense of smell is negligible to that of a dog, but when you see other creatures so effortlessly outperforming us in cognitive tasks it should really give us pause for wonder.  Isn't that supposed to be our territory ?

[torridon]

That still leaves you to face up to the fact that your original claim, that conscious perception requires an inner (supernatural) perceiver is wrong unless you admit that other animals also have a similar supernatural entity inside them.  Clearly, when animals are not sleeping or hibernating, they are awake and having some form of conscious experience. We cannot know what the quality of that experience is of course, but we cannot reasonably doubt that they are having some form of experience; when their eyes are open, they are experiencing sight, when they haven't eaten for a while, they experience hunger, when they see a predator bearing down on them, they experience fear. Your explanatory rationale for all this, that there is some invisible unevidenced supernatural perceiver inside just raises more problems than it solves imv.

I fully agree that the biological consciousness you assume human beings have also applies to animals.  Perhaps it would make things clearer if I described the human variety as spiritual consciouness, which allows the self awareness of the human soul to drive our thoughts and free will.

You remind me of an ancient Briton, striking off shards of flint to create his handaxe, you strike off shards of meaning from the terms you use as we expose them as useless. So now mere biological consciousness can be dispensed with and maybe you feel on safer ground with spiritual consciousness, a term not so amenable to definition and analysis. Does 'spiritual consciousness' actually exist, or are you hiding in the fog of language I wonder.

[Shaker]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

That's awesome. It's one thing to learn that eagles have so much better eyesight than us, or that our sense of smell is negligible to that of a dog, but when you see other creatures so effortlessly outperforming us in cognitive tasks it should really give us pause for wonder.  Isn't that supposed to be our territory ?

Some people are made extremely uncomfortable by all this.

[Rhiannon]

torridon
I wish I had this chimp's speed and accuracy of memory ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIGVT3N7B0

That's awesome. It's one thing to learn that eagles have so much better eyesight than us, or that our sense of smell is negligible to that of a dog, but when you see other creatures so effortlessly outperforming us in cognitive tasks it should really give us pause for wonder.  Isn't that supposed to be our territory ?

Some people are made extremely uncomfortable by all this.

And I found that just as baffling when I was a Christian as I do now.