Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3896240 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2600 on: July 19, 2015, 08:47:22 PM »
No; no magic required. That's for goddists.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2601 on: July 19, 2015, 08:54:37 PM »
We invented gods to answer questions we couldn't, but it also served as a cohesive force for group protection ... and still does to a great extent. However,  that does not alter the fact that they are human inventions.
It must have been a truly magical mutation in the DNA molecule which gave us the power to invent such things.

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2602 on: July 19, 2015, 10:47:29 PM »
We invented gods to answer questions we couldn't, but it also served as a cohesive force for group protection ... and still does to a great extent. However,  that does not alter the fact that they are human inventions.
It must have been a truly magical mutation in the DNA molecule which gave us the power to invent such things.

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.

When I use that word, posters (atheists) scoff!   
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2603 on: July 19, 2015, 10:55:22 PM »
I doubt it.

I mean, it's not as though atheists think there's no such thing as imagination.

It's just the mistaking of imagination for reality that's the issue.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2604 on: July 19, 2015, 10:58:05 PM »
I doubt it.

I mean, it's not as though atheists think there's no such thing as imagination.

It's just the mistaking of imagination for reality that's the issue.

Einstein used the word, and got the response you trotted out!  But then, he was Einstein, you're...Shaker...      :(
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2605 on: July 19, 2015, 11:04:31 PM »
Beautiful argument from authority there.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2606 on: July 19, 2015, 11:07:26 PM »
Beautiful argument from authority there.

Why, thank you.  I'm surprised;  but, hey, compliments are always welcome, what ever the source!    ;)
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2607 on: July 19, 2015, 11:08:42 PM »
Beautiful argument from authority there.

Why, thank you.  I'm surprised;  but, hey, compliments are always welcome, what ever the source!    ;)

Its a fallacy.

You committed a logical fallacy so your argument is flawed.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2608 on: July 19, 2015, 11:09:58 PM »
Beautiful argument from authority there.

Why, thank you.  I'm surprised;  but, hey, compliments are always welcome, what ever the source!    ;)
An argument from authority is a logical fallacy. It's not a compliment.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2609 on: July 19, 2015, 11:11:50 PM »
Beautiful argument from authority there.

Why, thank you.  I'm surprised;  but, hey, compliments are always welcome, what ever the source!    ;)
An argument from authority is a logical fallacy. It's not a compliment.

I take it as a compliment  -  I know that's what you mean!    :)
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2610 on: July 19, 2015, 11:20:49 PM »
It ought to be. In an ideal world to have fallacious thinking pointed out to one ought to be a good thing. It ought to be a case where the appropriate response is: "Thanks man! I see now where I went wrong ... thanks for pointing it out!"

But this isn't that ideal world; this is a world where people prefer their fallacies over the truth.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2611 on: July 19, 2015, 11:43:05 PM »
We invented gods to answer questions we couldn't, but it also served as a cohesive force for group protection ... and still does to a great extent. However,  that does not alter the fact that they are human inventions.
It must have been a truly magical mutation in the DNA molecule which gave us the power to invent such things.

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.
But what is imagination?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2612 on: July 20, 2015, 12:00:44 AM »

Even if that is true, as I have asked you before, why should human intelligence have anything to do with a deity, and not just down to us being more evolved than apes?

Because according to evolution nothing/no other species but man has evolved.
Think about that. Our cognitive functions and skills are far advanced beyond that of animals...
We can do and think far more than any animals.
What makes us different to the millions of species of animals on the planet still living as they did when first created?
I think you need to do some homework as regards the ToE, Sass.

No I don't Gordon.

You see there had to be a beginning.Evolution is like the Oak tree without the acorn or the Oak tree without the roots.And you are basically saying one can exist without the other...

Now please stop this stupid notion that you can really understand the theory of evolution without the truth that it has NO ROOTS in any case an ACORN....

I do understand evolution and I understand it has NO FOUNDATIONS...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2613 on: July 20, 2015, 12:02:41 AM »
Because according to evolution nothing/no other species but man has evolved.

Just when you think that Word Salad Sass can't possibly come out with anything more moronic than the last I've-had-my-brain-removed inanity, she does so.

Outstanding work. Absolutely outstanding.

Right! PROVE EVOLUTION...GIVE US THE MISSING FACTS AND THE FOUNDATIONS WHICH SUPPORT THE THEORY...

You can't which is the reason the scientist laugh at you and don't get involved in your baseless arguments...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2614 on: July 20, 2015, 07:51:12 AM »

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.
But what is imagination?

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.

 

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2615 on: July 20, 2015, 08:28:48 AM »

But what is imagination?

It is the ability of the brain to concoct scenarios that don't actually exist, as in daydreaming and sleep. The ability to pretend something which isn't true, as when puppies mock-fight their siblings as if they were enemies.

I would imagine that it evolved as a survival tool, with the fight or flight choice, but that is off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are many more valid ideas about it.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2616 on: July 20, 2015, 08:31:27 AM »
We invented gods to answer questions we couldn't, but it also served as a cohesive force for group protection ... and still does to a great extent. However,  that does not alter the fact that they are human inventions.
It must have been a truly magical mutation in the DNA molecule which gave us the power to invent such things.

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.
But what is imagination?

Something best avoided when related to the topic of this thread? ..... see 2nd Commandment.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2617 on: July 20, 2015, 08:33:38 AM »

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.
But what is imagination?

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.
I have seen imagination defined as the conscious manipulation of symbols, images, ideas and theories, and there have been studies made to see which parts of the brain are active when we imagine things.  But this does not really define how brain activity alone equates to what we actually perceive, and it does not define what drives the imagination.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 08:36:37 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2618 on: July 20, 2015, 09:01:35 AM »

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.
I have seen imagination defined as the conscious manipulation of symbols, images, ideas and theories, and there have been studies made to see which parts of the brain are active when we imagine things.  But this does not really define how brain activity alone equates to what we actually perceive, and it does not define what drives the imagination.

The drivers of imagination ? well, they say that necessity in the mother of invention, that probably covers it, imagination is a tool of creativity that helps us satisfy our needs.  It's not unique to humans of course; corvids for example are well known for their ability to take or fashion tools to help them obtain food; this is imaginative use of resources. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:04:58 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2619 on: July 20, 2015, 09:41:35 AM »

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.
I have seen imagination defined as the conscious manipulation of symbols, images, ideas and theories, and there have been studies made to see which parts of the brain are active when we imagine things.  But this does not really define how brain activity alone equates to what we actually perceive, and it does not define what drives the imagination.

The drivers of imagination ? well, they say that necessity in the mother of invention, that probably covers it, imagination is a tool of creativity that helps us satisfy our needs.  It's not unique to humans of course; corvids for example are well known for their ability to take or fashion tools to help them obtain food; this is imaginative use of resources.
But the brain of a corvid is tiny in relation to a human.  Surely the actions induced by such a small brain will be driven more by instinct than by consciously driven imagination.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2620 on: July 20, 2015, 09:47:39 AM »

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.
I have seen imagination defined as the conscious manipulation of symbols, images, ideas and theories, and there have been studies made to see which parts of the brain are active when we imagine things.  But this does not really define how brain activity alone equates to what we actually perceive, and it does not define what drives the imagination.

The drivers of imagination ? well, they say that necessity in the mother of invention, that probably covers it, imagination is a tool of creativity that helps us satisfy our needs.  It's not unique to humans of course; corvids for example are well known for their ability to take or fashion tools to help them obtain food; this is imaginative use of resources.
But the brain of a corvid is tiny in relation to a human.  Surely the actions induced by such a small brain will be driven more by instinct than by consciously driven imagination.

How do you know?

What if there are other beings perhaps that have existed for a billion years more than us, and their evolution also favoured big brains. Would they conclude that our brains are so puny as to not have intelligence?

It seems to me that whenever some characteristic from the natural world and other creatures is presented, you just use the fallacy that you cannot believe such a thing is possible.
It does not matter what you believe is possible, its what you can demonstrate

You whole argument is flawed due to the argument from incredulity fallacy.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 11:35:35 AM by BeRational »
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2621 on: July 20, 2015, 11:34:52 AM »

No, just the ability to see what different results two courses of action would bring, i.e, imagination ... nothing magical about that.
But what is imagination?

What-if modelling perhaps ? We use our brains as abstracted simplified models of reality, perhaps like a climate scientist might model long term climate scenarios in a supercomputer. Our minds are familiar with the base rules and relationships in a model and we can run the model forward varying the parameters to predict what different outcomes would occur. There is probably no real novelty in human imagination, it is more a process of mixing up known variables.   For instance, a colour blind person would not be able to use imagination to experience what blueness is like. Likewise a man who had never tasted salt would not be able to imagine what saltiness is like.
I have seen imagination defined as the conscious manipulation of symbols, images, ideas and theories, and there have been studies made to see which parts of the brain are active when we imagine things.  But this does not really define how brain activity alone equates to what we actually perceive, and it does not define what drives the imagination.

Your belief is imagination in action, since there is no credible evidence that would or could support the magical mythical or superstitious parts if it, simple as that Alan.

ippy

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2622 on: July 20, 2015, 11:57:40 AM »

But the brain of a corvid is tiny in relation to a human.  Surely the actions induced by such a small brain will be driven more by instinct than by consciously driven imagination.

Not instinct, but learning, as in much of all animal behaviour, including ours. The bird learns the behaviour by watching its parents, just as we do much of the time. But the point remains that for such a conduct to begin, some ancestor must have had the imagination to try it. So we are back to square one.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2623 on: July 20, 2015, 01:20:59 PM »

The drivers of imagination ? well, they say that necessity in the mother of invention, that probably covers it, imagination is a tool of creativity that helps us satisfy our needs.  It's not unique to humans of course; corvids for example are well known for their ability to take or fashion tools to help them obtain food; this is imaginative use of resources.
But the brain of a corvid is tiny in relation to a human.  Surely the actions induced by such a small brain will be driven more by instinct than by consciously driven imagination.

Well maybe no one matches humans for inventiveness overall and likely a corvid does not think about what it is doing in the way we do. It probably still counts as imagination at work though, imagination is not located solely in conscious mind, many of our brightest ideas come to us while we are asleep, the solution to a problem is often there for the taking when we wake up.

The brain of a corvid is tiny compared to that of a human, and that is why such insights regarding the often surprising cognitive abilities of other creatures is so intriguing. 'Brain size correlates to intelligence' is a very crude equation. To me such insights are a source of fascination, they tell of the depth of relatedness of all life. A corvid's brain might be small, but consider how tiny is the brain of a honeybee, perhaps one million neurons, around a hundred thousandth the size of ours, and yet they manage complex social interactions and communication with such tiny cerebral resources. And remember flowers are beautiful things; go look at one this afternoon and marvel at how the beauty of flowers evolved to appeal to bees, not humans, indicating that a deep ancestor of our sense of aesthetics lies there today in the tiny and primitive brain of a bee. Clues to the deep relatedness of all life and the origins of many of our own traits are all around us if we have the mind to see and wonder and try to understand.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 01:23:39 PM by torridon »

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #2624 on: July 20, 2015, 02:58:54 PM »
Something on corvids.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae

Cleverer than dogs, and self-aware.