Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

alan Burns

If this intelligence is 'beyond human comprehension', how come you profess to seem to know about it?

I simply know that the human being has been brought into existence and the full complexity of our existence is still to be discovered.

[Leonard James]

alan Burns

If this intelligence is 'beyond human comprehension', how come you profess to seem to know about it?

I simply know that the human being has been brought into existence and the full complexity of our existence is still to be discovered.

Quite! But you are claiming to know something about the phenomenon that brought it all about, even as far as giving it a name and claiming to know its wants. THAT is what I refute.

[ippy]

alan Burns

If this intelligence is 'beyond human comprehension', how come you profess to seem to know about it?

I simply know that the human being has been brought into existence and the full complexity of our existence is still to be discovered.

Explain!

ippy

[wigginhall]

How about gravity?  Nobody understands how it works, although we can describe its effects.  Does this mean that it is created by an intelligence beyond human comprehension?

Gravity shows no specific complexity in itself, so it can't be used as a pointer to intelligent design.

How do you know this?  One idea is that gravity is a consequence of curvature in spacetime.   For example, near very heavy objects the future direction points down.  Ah well, according to you this is not complex,  I hope that you have informed the physics community, they will be very relieved to hear this, congratulations.

[Alan Burns]

How about gravity?  Nobody understands how it works, although we can describe its effects.  Does this mean that it is created by an intelligence beyond human comprehension?

Gravity shows no specific complexity in itself, so it can't be used as a pointer to intelligent design.

How do you know this?  One idea is that gravity is a consequence of curvature in spacetime.   For example, near very heavy objects the future direction points down.  Ah well, according to you this is not complex,  I hope that you have informed the physics community, they will be very relieved to hear this, congratulations.

The mathematics are simply used to describe its properties.  Gravity is just a single entity which exists.

The human soul is not definable in material terms, and the human body comprises of the very specific comlexity which is indicative of intelligent design.

[torridon]

The human soul is not definable in material terms, and the human body comprises of the very specific comlexity which is indicative of intelligent design.

Assertion alert !

There are many aspects of the human body that are far from intelligently designed.  The human spine, for instance, its a complete pig's ear in design terms.  I'd have thought an intelligent designer would do a good and thorough job.

And maybe the human soul is not definable in material terms because it doesn't exist.  If there is no way to detect it, then there can never be any justification for your assertion that it exists.

[ippy]

How about gravity?  Nobody understands how it works, although we can describe its effects.  Does this mean that it is created by an intelligence beyond human comprehension?

Gravity shows no specific complexity in itself, so it can't be used as a pointer to intelligent design.

How do you know this?  One idea is that gravity is a consequence of curvature in spacetime.   For example, near very heavy objects the future direction points down.  Ah well, according to you this is not complex,  I hope that you have informed the physics community, they will be very relieved to hear this, congratulations.

The mathematics are simply used to describe its properties.  Gravity is just a single entity which exists.

The human soul is not definable in material terms, and the human body comprises of the very specific complexity which is indicative of intelligent design.

It's time for you to join up with that other Twit on the forum or perhaps better still move over to the US and join that multiplicity of living idiots with their laughable intelligent design theme park.

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

[Leonard James]

It's time for you to join up with that other Twit on the forum or perhaps better still move over to the US and join that multiplicity of living idiots with their laughable intelligent design theme park.

Erm... Alan is an American, Ippy!  That is what has contributed to his delusional ideas.

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

Christianity doesn't allow that kind of thinking. That is why it refers to non-believers as fools. 

[ippy]

It's time for you to join up with that other Twit on the forum or perhaps better still move over to the US and join that multiplicity of living idiots with their laughable intelligent design theme park.

Erm... Alan is an American, Ippy!  That is what has contributed to his delusional ideas.

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

Christianity doesn't allow that kind of thinking. That is why it refers to non-believers as fools. 

Thanks Len, I didn't know that but it does explain the extremist stance he continues to take, the poor deluded chap.

When you think they, the Americans, can land people on the Moon and still manage to produce millions of people that share the same regressive mindset Alan demonstrates; deeply sadening.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Erm... Alan is an American, Ippy!  That is what has contributed to his delusional ideas.

Sorry to disillusion you Len, but I am from Middlesbrough, a steel town in north east England.  I have visited the US on business, but all my inspired ideas about my faith were formed before I knew anything about American Christians, and before I read about the concept of intelligent design.

[ippy]

Erm... Alan is an American, Ippy!  That is what has contributed to his delusional ideas.

Sorry to disillusion you Len, but I am from Middlesbrough, a steel town in north east England.  I have visited the US on business, but all my inspired ideas about my faith were formed before I knew anything about American Christians, and before I read about the concept of intelligent design.

So you're not an American Alan, that doesn't make your views any more sensible.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

None of the responses I have had to my views have in any way caused me to question my faith.  God lives in me and I live in Him.  Nothing can alter this.

[wigginhall]

How about gravity?  Nobody understands how it works, although we can describe its effects.  Does this mean that it is created by an intelligence beyond human comprehension?

Gravity shows no specific complexity in itself, so it can't be used as a pointer to intelligent design.

How do you know this?  One idea is that gravity is a consequence of curvature in spacetime.   For example, near very heavy objects the future direction points down.  Ah well, according to you this is not complex,  I hope that you have informed the physics community, they will be very relieved to hear this, congratulations.

The mathematics are simply used to describe its properties.  Gravity is just a single entity which exists.

The human soul is not definable in material terms, and the human body comprises of the very specific comlexity which is indicative of intelligent design.

So the soul and the body are created by an intelligent designer, but stuff like gravity are not?   How does this all fit together - it sounds like a two-tier universe to me.   How about the moon creating the tides - did that happen intelligently or through dumb luck?

[ippy]

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

None of the responses I have had to my views have in any way caused me to question my faith.  God lives in me and I live in Him.  Nothing can alter this.

I'm sure there are some that think Kermet lives in them and they live within Kermet, god Kermet, take your pick they're both equally as likely, unless, of course you can prove otherwise.

ippy

[ekim]

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

None of the responses I have had to my views have in any way caused me to question my faith.  God lives in me and I live in Him.  Nothing can alter this.

There are many people who do not question their faith which is why others outside of the faith need to do the questioning on their behalf.  So you say Brahman lives within you and you live within Brahman, perhaps you could indicate what you mean by 'me' and 'I' in your assertion and how this is distinguished from 'God'.

[Leonard James]

Erm... Alan is an American, Ippy!  That is what has contributed to his delusional ideas.

Sorry to disillusion you Len, but I am from Middlesbrough, a steel town in north east England.  I have visited the US on business, but all my inspired ideas about my faith were formed before I knew anything about American Christians, and before I read about the concept of intelligent design.

I'm sorry, Alan! As you were in the US when we first met, I didn't realise that you didn't live there, and you didn't say that you were only a visiting Englishman.

My apologies to Ippy, too!

[Alan Burns]

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

None of the responses I have had to my views have in any way caused me to question my faith.  God lives in me and I live in Him.  Nothing can alter this.

There are many people who do not question their faith which is why others outside of the faith need to do the questioning on their behalf.  So you say Brahman lives within you and you live within Brahman, perhaps you could indicate what you mean by 'me' and 'I' in your assertion and how this is distinguished from 'God'.

You will never fully understand until you have the courage to invite God into your own life.  What I try to do is to open up the possibility of God's existence to people, enough for them to ask God for faith.  I do this by trying to share some of the insights and truths which my faith has given to me.  I firmly believe in everything I have posted on this forum, and the ridicule and criticisms I receive are what Jesus prophesied would happen, so I endure them with God's help.  My failings may be due to my inability to fully articulate the truths God has given to me, but that does not diminish the truths themselves.

[Alan Burns]

So the soul and the body are created by an intelligent designer, but stuff like gravity are not?   How does this all fit together - it sounds like a two-tier universe to me.   How about the moon creating the tides - did that happen intelligently or through dumb luck?

Everything ultimately comes from God.  Including the laws of science.

[torridon]

There are many people who do not question their faith which is why others outside of the faith need to do the questioning on their behalf.  So you say Brahman lives within you and you live within Brahman, perhaps you could indicate what you mean by 'me' and 'I' in your assertion and how this is distinguished from 'God'.

You will never fully understand until you have the courage to invite God into your own life.  What I try to do is to open up the possibility of God's existence to people, enough for them to ask God for faith.  I do this by trying to share some of the insights and truths which my faith has given to me....

So many of your 'insights' and 'truths' are just wrong though.  If your beliefs made sense then you'd fare better at attracting interest to your way of thinking.  I wouldn't want to end up promoting a mishmash of incoherent self contradictory fantasy beliefs which is what yours look like from my perspective. I prefer to remain grounded in reality, it must be my Yorkshire roots, we prefer to tell it like it is there.

[Enki]

There are many people who do not question their faith which is why others outside of the faith need to do the questioning on their behalf.  So you say Brahman lives within you and you live within Brahman, perhaps you could indicate what you mean by 'me' and 'I' in your assertion and how this is distinguished from 'God'.

You will never fully understand until you have the courage to invite God into your own life.  What I try to do is to open up the possibility of God's existence to people, enough for them to ask God for faith.  I do this by trying to share some of the insights and truths which my faith has given to me....

So many of your 'insights' and 'truths' are just wrong though.  If your beliefs made sense then you'd fare better at attracting interest to your way of thinking.  I wouldn't want to end up promoting a mishmash of incoherent self contradictory fantasy beliefs which is what yours look like from my perspective. I prefer to remain grounded in reality, it must be my Yorkshire roots, we prefer to tell it like it is there.

Didn't realise that you came from Yorkshire, Torri. Congratulations.

I can just imagine our Alan entering a Yorkshire pub on a winter's evening ready to put into action his prosletysing brief, only to be accosted with a heartfelt 'Put wood inth ‘ole' from the regulars.

[ekim]

I'll bet that you see the questions and ridicule aimed in your direction are in your mind some sort of test of your faith and you're possibly thinking there's some of the works of the devil amongst the well deserved criticism and abuse you're deservedly getting from all directions; has it occurred to you it might be you and not the others yet?

ippy

None of the responses I have had to my views have in any way caused me to question my faith.  God lives in me and I live in Him.  Nothing can alter this.

There are many people who do not question their faith which is why others outside of the faith need to do the questioning on their behalf.  So you say Brahman lives within you and you live within Brahman, perhaps you could indicate what you mean by 'me' and 'I' in your assertion and how this is distinguished from 'God'.

You will never fully understand until you have the courage to invite God into your own life.  What I try to do is to open up the possibility of God's existence to people, enough for them to ask God for faith.  I do this by trying to share some of the insights and truths which my faith has given to me.  I firmly believe in everything I have posted on this forum, and the ridicule and criticisms I receive are what Jesus prophesied would happen, so I endure them with God's help.  My failings may be due to my inability to fully articulate the truths God has given to me, but that does not diminish the truths themselves.

Some points on what you say.  There are many people who claim to have invited God into their lives and thereafter believe they are in tune with the will of that God and act accordingly, sometimes with disastrous consequences for others.  You can see examples within Islam and within Christianity.  Pamela Christensen was charged with attempting to murder her three daughters so that they would meet Jesus Christ, after she received instructions from her husband, a pastor, about the world coming to an end.  She stabbed two of her daughters.  No doubt the husband firmly believed in his insights and truths and it appears that his wife blindly carried out his instructions.  Your last sentence about an inability to fully articulate truths given to you by your God is a very good reason for not assuming that the writers of religious scripture were any more articulate.  Ridicule doesn't help anybody get to the truth but pertinent questions help to eliminate the false.

[wigginhall]

So the soul and the body are created by an intelligent designer, but stuff like gravity are not?   How does this all fit together - it sounds like a two-tier universe to me.   How about the moon creating the tides - did that happen intelligently or through dumb luck?

Everything ultimately comes from God.  Including the laws of science.

Wow, what a cop-out.  So you are not going to pursue your line that the body is too complex to have arisen via evolution, therefore is down to a creative intelligence, but gravity is not so complex, therefore isn't?  Things were just getting interesting, but I guess you have turned tail and run, when you realized the cul de sac you have entered.

[torridon]

Didn't realise that you came from Yorkshire, Torri. Congratulations.

I can just imagine our Alan entering a Yorkshire pub on a winter's evening ready to put into action his prosletysing brief, only to be accosted with a heartfelt 'Put wood inth ‘ole' from the regulars.

he he , aye, 'appen tha's right there lad 

[Alan Burns]

Didn't realise that you came from Yorkshire, Torri. Congratulations.

I can just imagine our Alan entering a Yorkshire pub on a winter's evening ready to put into action his prosletysing brief, only to be accosted with a heartfelt 'Put wood inth ‘ole' from the regulars.

he he , aye, 'appen tha's right there lad 

I have Yorkshire roots.  My mum came from Castleford, where I still have cousins, aunts and uncles, so I have withstood many tests from the "down to earth, tell it like it is" Yorkshire tradition. 

[Alan Burns]

So the soul and the body are created by an intelligent designer, but stuff like gravity are not?   How does this all fit together - it sounds like a two-tier universe to me.   How about the moon creating the tides - did that happen intelligently or through dumb luck?

Everything ultimately comes from God.  Including the laws of science.

Wow, what a cop-out.  So you are not going to pursue your line that the body is too complex to have arisen via evolution, therefore is down to a creative intelligence, but gravity is not so complex, therefore isn't?  Things were just getting interesting, but I guess you have turned tail and run, when you realized the cul de sac you have entered.

It is quite obvious to me that God set things in motion with the universe and its natural laws, but with the ability for it to be manipulated by acts of will - God's will or man's will.