Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

I was once a member -briefly- of a website for Christian mothers. The website was run by a CofE vicar's wife and her old man popped by regularly with nuggets of wisdom. He told one grieving woman -her mum had died a week or so before - that her non-believing mother was damned.

If God answers prayers he'd have answered mine that some of his arsehole followers would shut the fuck up.

The truly disturbing thing about this is that the man was being honest according to his worldview and belief system. Christianity does preach that non believers (in Christianity) will be damned because Jesus said that he was the (not a) way, the truth and the life and nobody gets to the Father except by him. It's in the book, laid out in black and white. Similarly, Islam says that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.

This is why monotheisms are the problem. They make exclusive, absolutist claims. When there's a belief in only the one god, pluralism goes out of the window. If there's only one god,  there's only one right way of believing and behaving; only one set of dos and don'ts. Anything else is error, basically, and must be stamped out. This is what leads, directly and ineluctably, to the foul and pernicious beliefs outlined above by that idiot, albeit a consistent idiot. Twat that he is, he was following his beliefs; the beliefs are at fault for turning otherwise ordinary folk into moral imbeciles such as this.

The Christian church teaches that we should not judge other people.  God is the final judge.  It is feasible that Jesus could help non Christians who have led a good life into Heaven, but it will be much easier for those who know of Jesus to simply accept Him as their saviour.

[Andy]

I know this probably sounds b*tchy, but I almost wish those who have banged on about how wonderful the deity and Jesus are, and how much they are looking forward to spending all eternity in their company, had a second or two of revelation as they were dying. The revelation would be that this life is as good as it gets and no afterlife exists!

Would they feel cheated that they had spent their lives believing in a mere fantasy?

If I was a betting person, which I am not, I can guess the sort of response I am going to get to that comment!

I would of course be grateful for the wonderful life I have been given on this earth.  Anything extra will be a bonus.

Given by whom?

Certainly not by the hostile nature of this universe.

That nature being the one you believe your god created.

[Shaker]

The Christian church teaches that we should not judge other people.

On balance how well do you feel that that has worked out over all, Alan?

God is the final judge.  It is feasible that Jesus could help non Christians who have led a good life into Heaven, but it will be much easier for those who know of Jesus to simply accept Him as their saviour.

Why "easier"?

[Alan Burns]

Blimey, you go from a battle hundreds of years ago to finding a contact lens! You cannot say that finding your contact lens wouldn't have happened without you having prayed. Unlikely things happen all the time and if you are in the habit of praying in such circumstances then when you find the thing you are looking for then you are bound to think its to do with your prayer and remember that. How about an example which is clearly impossible for it to have happened without divine intervention and clear supporting evidence that it did happen?

I do not see any reason to not pray about something just because it seems trivial, especially if you find that prayers for trivial things do get answered.  Every prayer we make is precious because it it involves a communication with the creator of the universe and builds up our faith in Him.

[Shaker]

I do not see any reason to not pray about something just because it seems trivial, especially if you find that prayers for trivial things do get answered.

You don't know this, though, Alan. You can't offer a methodology by which you could ever know this. People lose and then find contact lenses, glasses, wallets and keys, search for and find parking spaces all the time - in a land mass the size of Great Britain it must happen, I would hazard a guess, at thousands of times a day every day. You can't offer any method by which this happens by anything other than sheer random chance - material objects (including people) bumping around the universe. I know you believe that this is intelligently guided by the god in whom you believe because you've been consistent and clear in saying so, regularly, but no matter how passionate an inward conviction it is, based on the whole warp and weft of your worldview, it can never be anything other than a belief, Alan.

Every prayer we make is precious because it it involves a communication with the creator of the universe and builds up our faith in Him.

So you seem to be saying, Alan, that you genuinely can't see any difference in any way whatsoever between praying to find a lost contact lens and praying for the eradication of war, hunger, poverty, disease and ignorance - that they're all on an equal plane, so to speak. Have I got the right of it here or am I mistaken?

[Alan Burns]

The Christian church teaches that we should not judge other people.

On balance how well do you feel that that has worked out over all, Alan?

Too many people allow their own self centred motives to override God's teaching.

God is the final judge.  It is feasible that Jesus could help non Christians who have led a good life into Heaven, but it will be much easier for those who know of Jesus to simply accept Him as their saviour.

Why "easier"?

Because if you know Jesus, there is a danger of being guilty of rejecting Him if you do not accept Him as your saviour.

[Maeght]

Blimey, you go from a battle hundreds of years ago to finding a contact lens! You cannot say that finding your contact lens wouldn't have happened without you having prayed. Unlikely things happen all the time and if you are in the habit of praying in such circumstances then when you find the thing you are looking for then you are bound to think its to do with your prayer and remember that. How about an example which is clearly impossible for it to have happened without divine intervention and clear supporting evidence that it did happen?

I do not see any reason to not pray about something just because it seems trivial,

Of course you don't - but did I sayyou shouldn't?

especially if you find that prayers for trivial things do get answered.

My point was that you don't know the prayers have been answered and that what happened was no more than would have happend without prayers.

Every prayer we make is precious because it it involves a communication with the creator of the universe and builds up our faith in Him.

I'm sure you think that but not really relevant to the point I was making.

[Alan Burns]

I know this probably sounds b*tchy, but I almost wish those who have banged on about how wonderful the deity and Jesus are, and how much they are looking forward to spending all eternity in their company, had a second or two of revelation as they were dying. The revelation would be that this life is as good as it gets and no afterlife exists!

Would they feel cheated that they had spent their lives believing in a mere fantasy?

If I was a betting person, which I am not, I can guess the sort of response I am going to get to that comment!

I would of course be grateful for the wonderful life I have been given on this earth.  Anything extra will be a bonus.

Given by whom?

Certainly not by the hostile nature of this universe.

That nature being the one you believe your god created.

God created nature so that it can be manipulated.  Left unguided it is ultimately destructive.

[Andy]

I know this probably sounds b*tchy, but I almost wish those who have banged on about how wonderful the deity and Jesus are, and how much they are looking forward to spending all eternity in their company, had a second or two of revelation as they were dying. The revelation would be that this life is as good as it gets and no afterlife exists!

Would they feel cheated that they had spent their lives believing in a mere fantasy?

If I was a betting person, which I am not, I can guess the sort of response I am going to get to that comment!

I would of course be grateful for the wonderful life I have been given on this earth.  Anything extra will be a bonus.

Given by whom?

Certainly not by the hostile nature of this universe.

That nature being the one you believe your god created.

God created nature so that it can be manipulated.  Left unguided it is ultimately destructive.

Then you can argue that out with other theists who believe god continuously sustains nature.

[Alan Burns]

So you seem to be saying, Alan, that you genuinely can't see any difference in any way whatsoever between praying to find a lost contact lens and praying for the eradication of war, hunger, poverty, disease and ignorance - that they're all on an equal plane, so to speak. Have I got the right of it here or am I mistaken?

Anything which brings us closer to God is on the highest plane of importance in our lives, because this is the ultimate reason behind our existence.

[Alan Burns]

I know this probably sounds b*tchy, but I almost wish those who have banged on about how wonderful the deity and Jesus are, and how much they are looking forward to spending all eternity in their company, had a second or two of revelation as they were dying. The revelation would be that this life is as good as it gets and no afterlife exists!

Would they feel cheated that they had spent their lives believing in a mere fantasy?

If I was a betting person, which I am not, I can guess the sort of response I am going to get to that comment!

I would of course be grateful for the wonderful life I have been given on this earth.  Anything extra will be a bonus.

Given by whom?

Certainly not by the hostile nature of this universe.

That nature being the one you believe your god created.

God created nature so that it can be manipulated.  Left unguided it is ultimately destructive.

Then you can argue that out with other theists who believe god continuously sustains nature.

To continually sustain something requires guidance.  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

[Nearly Sane]

So you seem to be saying, Alan, that you genuinely can't see any difference in any way whatsoever between praying to find a lost contact lens and praying for the eradication of war, hunger, poverty, disease and ignorance - that they're all on an equal plane, so to speak. Have I got the right of it here or am I mistaken?

Anything which brings us closer to God is on the highest plane of importance in our lives, because this is the ultimate reason behind our existence.

so there you are Alan and his contact lens is much more important than my friend dying of skin cancer at the age of 28 on the day she married.

[Shaker]

Because if you know Jesus, there is a danger of being guilty of rejecting Him if you do not accept Him as your saviour.

1. What do you mean by "know" Jesus? I've heard of Jesus, I've read the New Testament (the four Gospels especially, perhaps) many times, I've read the words and read about the actions attributed to Jesus. There are a few good bits, a lot of woolly nonsense, and some downright ugly, deplorable vileness that no person who pretends to decency, charity, good-will and humanity should support. On balance there probably was a human being we know as Jesus, but don't bother myself with the issue of historicity or mythicism as I regard it as wholly irrelevant and sublimely unimportant to anything meaningful about life. Jesus as presented in the few scant documents which purport to relate his words and actions comes across to me as a man of widely and wildly varying moods, now kind, gentle and charitable, now a swivel-eyed, spittle-flecked maniac - possibly somebody with emotional/psychological issues. Seems like just a man of his time and religion to me, intermittently admirable but also often deplorable. I don't consider an obscure figure of questionable historical provenance in the ancient world to be a saviour as there's nothing to be saved from. Not all that interesting and definitely not important, so I do not accept him as my saviour.

2. What is the "danger of being guilty" of rejecting Jesus (which presumably by my own admission I do), exactly?

[Leonard James]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

[Nearly Sane]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

And if true means he is intimately involved in the suffering and the pain as well.

[Leonard James]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

And if true means he is intimately involved in the suffering and the pain as well.

Good point! What have you to say to that, Alan?

[savillerow]

Can I just say I cant for one second comprehend anything AB is saying. Its all La Di Da, Tra La La and Fiddle De De to me. Science, logic and common sense must win in the end. Its like your brain is in a bubble of compartmentalize madness. I dont know how else to say it.

[Leonard James]

Can I just say I cant for one second comprehend anything AB is saying. Its all La Di Da, Tra La La and Fiddle De De to me. Science, logic and common sense must win in the end. Its like your brain is in a bubble of compartmentalize madness. I dont know how else to say it.

Such is the power of religion over the credulous.

[Shaker]

God created nature so that it can be manipulated.

Bald assertion unsupported by fact.

Left unguided it is ultimately destructive.

Bald assertion unsupported by fact.

[Shaker]

Anything which brings us closer to God is on the highest plane of importance in our lives, because this is the ultimate reason behind our existence.

Not in my life. The highest plane of importance in my life revolves around (amongst other things) family (some), friends I love and in whose company I delight, the animals I adore (generally, and the ones by whom I am owned especially), good drink and lots of it, good food and lots of it, good sex and lots of it*, books and lots of them, music (especially but not exclusively classical/orchestral music of the British Isles roughly between 1880 and 1960, i.e. between Parry** and Vaughan Williams), internet porn, interesting stuff on the telly, ideas/philosophy generally, a nice shower last thing before bed, the life and thought of Friedrich Nietzsche, writing up the diary at the end of most days, planting up pots and troughs in the back garden, going for a walk, the music of Ralph Vaughan Williams, chatting to the next door neighbour with the big knockers, mowing the lawn, the music of Jean Sibelius, enjoying the natural world, sweeping up the leaves from the tree outside when autumn comes, and in general marvelling at the fleeting, transient biochemical accident that my existence is so long as it lasts before it doesn't last any more. All this and eighteen billion more things large and small that make up the quietest and most ordinary of lives - a nobody, nowhere, and yet here I am: as Pascal put it, only a reed, the weakest thing in nature ... but a thinking reed. Why anybody would want or believe in more than this, the weirdness and marvel and beauty and horror and what Meister Eckhart called Istigkeit - standardly translated as Is-ness - of this life as me in this world, here, absolutely defeats me.

Funnily enough any god doesn't seem to figure in all this. I don't know of any ultimate reasons behind my existence, although I know of many proximate ones.

* I take the Woody Allen view: even when sex isn't that great, it's still pretty damned good.

** Entirely unknown to almost everybody these days, which is a terrible shame. Go on YouTube and search for "Parry Symphonic Variations" and tell me that that isn't an undeservedly neglected and wrongly forgotten masterpiece.

[Alan Burns]

Not all that interesting and definitely not important, so I do not accept him as my saviour.

If what you say about Jesus is true, how does He come to be the most influential human being who has ever lived, with such a monumental impact that even our callendar is defined from His existence?

[Alan Burns]

Anything which brings us closer to God is on the highest plane of importance in our lives, because this is the ultimate reason behind our existence.

Not in my life. The highest plane of importance in my life revolves around (amongst other things) family (some), friends I love and in whose company I delight, the animals I adore (generally, and the ones by whom I am owned especially), good drink and lots of it, good food and lots of it, good sex and lots of it*, books and lots of them, music (especially but not exclusively classical/orchestral music of the British Isles roughly between 1880 and 1960, i.e. between Parry** and Vaughan Williams), internet porn, interesting stuff on the telly, ideas/philosophy generally, a nice shower last thing before bed, the life and thought of Friedrich Nietzsche, writing up the diary at the end of most days, planting up pots and troughs in the back garden, going for a walk, the music of Ralph Vaughan Williams, chatting to the next door neighbour with the big knockers, mowing the lawn, the music of Jean Sibelius, enjoying the natural world, sweeping up the leaves from the tree outside when autumn comes, and in general marvelling at the fleeting, transient biochemical accident that my existence is so long as it lasts before it doesn't last any more. All this and eighteen billion more things large and small that make up the quietest and most ordinary of lives - a nobody, nowhere, and yet here I am: as Pascal put it, only a reed, the weakest thing in nature ... but a thinking reed. Why anybody would want or believe in more than this, the weirdness and marvel and beauty and horror and what Meister Eckhart called Istigkeit - standardly translated as Is-ness - of this life as me in this world, here, absolutely defeats me.

Funnily enough any god doesn't seem to figure in all this. I don't know of any ultimate reasons behind my existence, although I know of many proximate ones.

* I take the Woody Allen view: even when sex isn't that great, it's still pretty damned good.

** Entirely unknown to almost everybody these days, which is a terrible shame. Go on YouTube and search for "Parry Symphonic Variations" and tell me that that isn't an undeservedly neglected and wrongly forgotten masterpiece.

You seem to be confusing the word "importance" with "pleasure"

[Alan Burns]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

And if true means he is intimately involved in the suffering and the pain as well.

Good point! What have you to say to that, Alan?

The bible says we are a fallen race.  We are not in Heaven yet.  And the devil has influence and power over us.  But God is trying to help us.

[BeRational]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

And if true means he is intimately involved in the suffering and the pain as well.

Good point! What have you to say to that, Alan?

The bible says we are a fallen race.  We are not in Heaven yet.  And the devil has influence and power over us.  But God is trying to help us.

Does the devil have free will?

Does the devil know God exists?

[Nearly Sane]

  I firmly believe that God is intimately involved with sustaining the life on this planet.

For no other reason than that you are credulous, for there is zero evidence that it is true.

And if true means he is intimately involved in the suffering and the pain as well.

Good point! What have you to say to that, Alan?

The bible says we are a fallen race.  We are not in Heaven yet.  And the devil has influence and power over us.  But God is trying to help us.

that's nice so he can find your contact lens but saving my friend from dying was a bit beyond him, bit shite, your god?