Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

Not all that interesting and definitely not important, so I do not accept him as my saviour.

If what you say about Jesus is true, how does He come to be the most influential human being who has ever lived, with such a monumental impact that even our callendar is defined from His existence?

is that including the extermination of the Tasmanian aborigines?

[Shaker]

Not all that interesting and definitely not important, so I do not accept him as my saviour.

If what you say about Jesus is true, how does He come to be the most influential human being who has ever lived, with such a monumental impact that even our callendar is defined from His existence?

In the West the calendar comes from the Venerable Bede, I believe.

The more general answer is that most people in most ways most of the time preferentially believe what their emotions tell them they would like to be the case rather than what actually is demonstrably the case. So: some obscure somebody miles away umpty-dumpty-squillion years ago who says that you won't be rendered exterminated and extinct once and for all for ever upon your death - that you're important and significant enough to be kept hanging around for ever and ever and ever; that you're special, and not ultimately a random and disposable and fleeting collocation of universal debris - will on balance tend to be quite popular amongst people who don't want to face up to the fact their existences are forgettable, transient biochemical accidents of proximate but no ultimate significance in any way whatsoever. Bede was one such. There have been many, and still are.

That's the way it is, as far as I can see.

[torridon]

Not all that interesting and definitely not important, so I do not accept him as my saviour.

If what you say about Jesus is true, how does He come to be the most influential human being who has ever lived, with such a monumental impact that even our callendar is defined from His existence?

On a list of famous names, somebody has to be at the top of the list, and the particular twists and turns of world history might have put the name Jesus currently in top position.  If Constantine the Great had gone with Mithraism instead of Christianity, probably neither you nor I would have heard of Jesus.  That we have christianity as the currently most popular religion is mostly down to its luck at being in a favoured position at the start of successive waves of European imperialism.  'Jesus' won't retain his top spot forever however, nothing lasts forever of course, and sooner or later 'Jesus' will be replaced by 'Mohammed', or 'Allah'.

[torridon]

I always remember the story of the family picnicing near a storm drain. The child fell in, the father dived in  swam underwater for a considerable time and dragged the child out. He was taken to hospital and survived. The mother thanked God for saving her child and the father nodded in the background! If God can and does intervene in everyday lives why didn't he stop the child falling in in the first place, or scoop him up with an invisible hand and put him back on the dry land?

We are God's hands on this earth

So when a miracle occurs, that is god intervening directly in the natural order; when he doesn't intervene, it is because he is expecting us to do his work for him 

[torridon]

I know from experience that the things I pray about always end up better than the things I choose not to pray about, or sometimes forget to pray about.  I know there is no way to prove this to an outsider, but I know from within when God answers prayers.

You can help outsiders by providing demonstrable evidence that prayer works. I've set you a challenge to post up on here my paternal grandfather's christian name, and so far you haven't met the challenge.  When people make extravagant or fantastic claims, we challenge them to substantiate those claims; if you cannot justify your claims then people are going to start thinking you are a fraud.

[Maeght]

I always remember the story of the family picnicing near a storm drain. The child fell in, the father dived in  swam underwater for a considerable time and dragged the child out. He was taken to hospital and survived. The mother thanked God for saving her child and the father nodded in the background! If God can and does intervene in everyday lives why didn't he stop the child falling in in the first place, or scoop him up with an invisible hand and put him back on the dry land?

We are God's hands on this earth

Nice phrase but not really very meaningful. Is the verse that TW quoted earlier on wrong then as it seems to tell a different story.

'And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and encircled the fortress (camp) of God’s people (the saints) and the beloved city; but fire descended from heaven and consumed them.'

Any comment Alan?

[Rhiannon]

Yes, we could get rid of every other thread and just keep this one, it's been so broad in scope. (And an absolute pleasure to read and post on, I might add.)

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, we could get rid of every other thread and just keep this one, it's been so broad in scope. (And an absolute pleasure to read and post on, I might add.)

Yes, it's interesting that this has become a sort of catch all Christianity thread - quite often it's the evolution ones that become that but this is better because it doesn't feel as if it is actually off topic.

[ekim]

I've set you a challenge to post up on here my paternal grandfather's christian name

Albert, George 

[torridon]

A nice try, from the God of Probability, I think 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

Post 3003, luck, prove it!! This is such a old and weak argument, first you need to show me the evidence that there is no God, just the same as I can't offer you the kind of evidence that there is a God.

Did Constantine have a vision! What is a vision!

Christianity, the life and teachings of Our Lord Jesus has resonated down through the ages, no other religion has touched so many.

Luck is a very poor argument, you would need to argue that Christianity has no appeal.

Read the Four Gospels with a open mind, forget the miracles, focus on the man Jesus, his deeds and teaching, it works, billions will testify to this.

Luck! No I think it is a bit more than just luck.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Torridon,

Post 3003, luck, prove it!! This is such a old and weak argument, first you need to show me the evidence that there is no God, just the same as I can't offer you the kind of evidence that there is a God.

Did Constantine have a vision! What is a vision!

Christianity, the life and teachings of Our Lord Jesus has resonated down through the ages, no other religion has touched so many.

Luck is a very poor argument, you would need to argue that Christianity has no appeal.

Read the Four Gospels with a open mind, forget the miracles, focus on the man Jesus, his deeds and teaching, it works, billions will testify to this.

Luck! No I think it is a bit more than just luck.

Gonnagle.

Good post, Gonners:  on the nail!

[Maeght]

What luck are you referring to Gonnagle?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

Torridon 3003 post.

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Thanks - saved me trawling through everything. Certainly the fact that the Roman Empire adopted Christianity was a major boost to its spread - but whether that's luck or not I'll leave to others to comment.

Jesus' messge in general certainly has appeal - though not unique. That doesn't say anything though about whether God actually exists.

[ippy]

Dear Torridon,

Post 3003, luck, prove it!! This is such a old and weak argument, first you need to show me the evidence that there is no God, just the same as I can't offer you the kind of evidence that there is a God.

Did Constantine have a vision! What is a vision!

Christianity, the life and teachings of Our Lord Jesus has resonated down through the ages, no other religion has touched so many.

Luck is a very poor argument, you would need to argue that Christianity has no appeal.

Read the Four Gospels with a open mind, forget the miracles, focus on the man Jesus, his deeds and teaching, it works, billions will testify to this.

Luck! No I think it is a bit more than just luck.

Gonnagle.

"first you need to show me the evidence that there is no God", you can't be that thick Gonners!

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

I have medals for being thick!

Dear Maeght,

I have no argument with your post, it's the luck bit I get stuck on, I will add, Christianity the luckiest religion in the whole world.

Now why am I thinking about little Kylie!

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

I have medals for being thick!

Dear Maeght,

I have no argument with your post, it's the luck bit I get stuck on, I will add, Christianity the luckiest religion in the whole world.

Now why am I thinking about little Kylie!

Gonnagle.

That post of yours does make me wonder why you're  pretending to be thick, was there any special reason?

If that had been Hope posing the same question, well that'd be par for the course and not unexpected.

Gonners I just do not see you as in any way a dipstick.

Surly there's no need to go through the credibly of, Unicorns, The Tooth Fairy or Spaghetti monsters, list with you too.

ippy     

[Leonard James]

Dear ippy,

I have medals for being thick!

Dear Maeght,

I have no argument with your post, it's the luck bit I get stuck on, I will add, Christianity the luckiest religion in the whole world.

Now why am I thinking about little Kylie!

Gonnagle.

That post of yours does make me wonder why you're  pretending to be thick, was there any special reason?

If that had been Hope posing the same question, well that'd be par for the course and not unexpected.

Gonners I just do not see you as in any way a dipstick.

Surly there's no need to go through the credibly of, Unicorns, The Tooth Fairy or Spaghetti monsters, list with you too.

ippy   

Maybe the medals were not for his brain being thick, but some other part of his body! 

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

I have medals for being thick!

Dear Maeght,

I have no argument with your post, it's the luck bit I get stuck on, I will add, Christianity the luckiest religion in the whole world.

Now why am I thinking about little Kylie!

Gonnagle.

That post of yours does make me wonder why you're  pretending to be thick, was there any special reason?

If that had been Hope posing the same question, well that'd be par for the course and not unexpected.

Gonners I just do not see you as in any way a dipstick.

Surly there's no need to go through the credibly of, Unicorns, The Tooth Fairy or Spaghetti monsters, list with you too.

ippy   

Maybe the medals were not for his brain being thick, but some other part of his body! 

Derr I hadn't thought of that; I should have checked with you first Len,

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Tooth fairy, Unicorn, flying spaghetti monster ( why does it have to fly ).

Actually the Bible says it better than I ever could.

When I was a child I spoke as a child.

In fact Corinthians book 1 verse 13 says it all about your argument for cookie monsters.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

The Bible, dear people, is a collection of books which includes historical facts, morality fables and folklore. It began long before it was written down, as spoken folklore, so it was obviously edited very much during all those years. Furthermore it has been much edited, translated and interpreted during its life as an anthology.

Considering these facts, what it was all intended to convey when it first began its life is very uncertain indeed. Even the historical facts will have gone through the same process.

So apart from some good moral advice in parts, it should be given no more importance than any other book or collection of books.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Tooth fairy, Unicorn, flying spaghetti monster ( why does it have to fly ).

Actually the Bible says it better than I ever could.

When I was a child I spoke as a child.

In fact Corinthians book 1 verse 13 says it all about your argument for cookie monsters.

Gonnagle.

Not a lot of hope for you Gonners?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

I always remember the story of the family picnicing near a storm drain. The child fell in, the father dived in  swam underwater for a considerable time and dragged the child out. He was taken to hospital and survived. The mother thanked God for saving her child and the father nodded in the background! If God can and does intervene in everyday lives why didn't he stop the child falling in in the first place, or scoop him up with an invisible hand and put him back on the dry land?

We are God's hands on this earth

Nice phrase but not really very meaningful. Is the verse that TW quoted earlier on wrong then as it seems to tell a different story.

'And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and encircled the fortress (camp) of God’s people (the saints) and the beloved city; but fire descended from heaven and consumed them.'

Any comment Alan?

The phrase I used simply indicates that God may often work through other people to answer prayers.  This is a deduction made from hearing the personal testimonies from many people who's prayers have been answered through the intervention of others.  Sceptics of course will put it down to yet another collection of coincidences.  I do not fully understand what this has to do with the bible quotation.

I confess that I find the imagary in the book of Revelation difficult to interpret, and so do many theologeans, for there are many different interpretations, some of which have been used to conradict the message of the Gospels, as done by Jehovas Witnesses.  My Christian faith is based primarily on the content of the Gospels.

For what it is worth, I feel the quotation used is simply stating that the followers of Satan will be defeated.

[Maeght]

The point was; I gave the example of human heroics saving a child where people were thanking God and I asked why God let the child be in danger in the first place or why God couldn't just rescue the child without requiring the human intervention you suggested that God uses humans to do such things rather than intervening himself. the quote TW used shows God simply using heavenly fire to directly intervene. This seems to conflict with what you suggested.

I think when you use the word deduction you are misusing the term. You have interpreted things which could purely be human actions as having divine origins, based on your beliefs. You don't have to be a skeptic to conclude that there is quite likely confirmation basis associated with perfectly normal coincidences going on.

I asked if you could provide any examples of clear divine intervention, with good supporting evidence, which couldn't possibly have happened otherwise. Have you thought of any yet or are they all like your Lepano and contact lens examples i.e. very unconvincing?