Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

People who accuse Christians of using the "God of gaps" approach to justify their faith do not realise that the gaps may in fact be huge unbreachable voids which will never be filled with scientific discovery.

Except that no one is justified in stating that any particular gap may never be filled - that's going beyond the boundaries of any secure and grounded epistemology.

Confident predictions that heavier-than-air flight is impossible and four young Northerners being told that there's no future in guitar groups spring to mind.

I do not subscribe to these voids being filled by human speculation, but by God's revelation.

Since it has never once happened before ever in the entire sweep of human history I suppose that's faith in action for you ...

[ippy]

And you're telling people like me we are sad, I know who's got their head buried in the sand and they're nowhere to be seen around here; things have to make sense it's you taking things in without any credible back up and then asserting, not me.

The sadness I feel is that people who try to limit their perception of reality to what can be discovered by human scientific investigation are in fact missing what life is all about.  Human scientific discovery does not define the whole of reality, and to assume it does is in itself a "head in the sand" attitude.

So you assert again for the umpteenth time, there is no way you can know the things you insist on asserting, my comments are just that, they're not assertions.

If you want to think there are things that are away from the use of scientific methods, imagine  away for that's all you will have, the only limit will be you powers of imagination; ludicrous.

ippy

[Leonard James]

The sadness I feel is that people who try to limit their perception of reality to what can be discovered by human scientific investigation are in fact missing what life is all about.

And that is where you go wrong! People who accept the realities of life that science has so far revealed, and who are honest enough to say "we don't know" to the rest, ARE living life to the full. We don't need dream worlds and gods to make it complete, and I would dare to say that we are just as happy and fulfilled as believers.

Floating on a cloud of speculation may give you a comfortable feeling, but it's not the real world.

Human scientific discovery does not define the whole of reality, and to assume it does is in itself a "head in the sand" attitude.

And inventing gods and afterlives is burying yourself completely in non-reality.

[Leonard James]

I do not subscribe to these voids being filled by human speculation, but by God's revelation.

But what you are talking about is not "God's" revelation! It is a load of stuff written by a science ignorant race of people thousands of years ago, when good and evil spirit myths abounded. They knew no better, but to follow in their footsteps in this age of enlightenment is sheer folly.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Still peddling the religion versus science/science equals atheism cobblers boys?

You dishonour both science and religion.

[savillerow]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

[Alan Burns]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Yes we are aware what science can do. It is methodological materialism and that's about it...despite you trying to add mystical virtue to it from your philosophical materialist faith position.

[SusanDoris]

#3235, #3236 and #3238.
Excellent posts. If only AB (and others) would remove their metaphorical blinkers before reading them!

[Leonard James]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

Only in your mind in this life. When you die you will go out like a spent match, never to exist again, just like everybody else.

But if you can't face the idea, Alan, carry on with your rainbow chasing, you will do no harm. It's the wicked bastards that use their religion to harm others that I am fighting against.

[Nearly Sane]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

and any of your friends or relatives or loved ones who don't have it can calmly be forgotten about after that.

[Alan Burns]

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 7:7-8

[Alan Burns]

#3235, #3236 and #3238.
Excellent posts. If only AB (and others) would remove their metaphorical blinkers before reading them!

Susan, 
It is not me who is wearing the blinkers

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

Depends how you ask, depends how you knock, but first check under the mat for the key.

Book of Gonnagle, or if you prefer that old book, Proverbs 4.7.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

#3235, #3236 and #3238.
Excellent posts. If only AB (and others) would remove their metaphorical blinkers before reading them!

Susan, 
It is not me who is wearing the blinkers

It is, Alan, but they stop you from seeing it! 

[ippy]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

Another baseless assertion, you've got a real tallent in this area Alan, see what else you can imagine up.

ippy

[ippy]

The opposing view might be that it helps prevent a 'head in the clouds' attitude.

Given the choice, I think I would rather keep my head in the clouds rather than in the sand.

That's good Alan, do it take your head out of the sand, go on be bold.

ippy

[Leonard James]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

Another baseless assertion, you've got a real tallent in this area Alan, see what else you can imagine up.

ippy

Well, to be fair, Alan didn't dream it up himself, he just swallowed what somebody else wrote.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

Only in your mind in this life. When you die you will go out like a spent match, never to exist again, just like everybody else.

You hope.

[ippy]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

Faith gets you eternal life in heaven

O
Another baseless assertion, you've got a real tallent in this area Alan, see what else you can imagine up.

ippy

Well, to be fair, Alan didn't dream it up himself, he just swallowed what somebody else wrote.

Yes Len I agree but he does imagine it's all real and if he can manage that ther's plenty of scope for him to imagine, well, who knows what? He's got plenty of scope.

I'm going to imagine a cup of coffee sitting out in the garden with my lovely wife, (the lovely wife bit wasn't immaginary), now whilst trying to imagine the sun.

My good regards to you Len, ippy

[Leonard James]

Yes Len I agree but he does imagine it's all real and if he can manage that ther's plenty of scope for him to imagine, well, who knows what? He's got plenty of scope.

And boy, some of them do use it! 

I'm going to imagine a cup of coffee sitting out in the garden with my lovely wife, (the lovely wife bit wasn't immaginary), now whilst trying to imagine the sun.

My good regards to you Len, ippy

How I envy you! Not for your beautiful wife, of course, but for the pleasure of feeling cooler. The day temps here haven't dropped below below 30º for months, and the nights are only slightly cooler. Right now, Eskimo land would feel like heaven to me. 

[floo]

Yes Len I agree but he does imagine it's all real and if he can manage that ther's plenty of scope for him to imagine, well, who knows what? He's got plenty of scope.

And boy, some of them do use it! 

I'm going to imagine a cup of coffee sitting out in the garden with my lovely wife, (the lovely wife bit wasn't immaginary), now whilst trying to imagine the sun.

My good regards to you Len, ippy

How I envy you! Not for your beautiful wife, of course, but for the pleasure of feeling cooler. The day temps here haven't dropped below below 30º for months, and the nights are only slightly cooler. Right now, Eskimo land would feel like heaven to me. 

[/b][/i][/u]

That is how I felt when we had a brief heatwave a few weeks ago! 

[Leonard James]

Yes Len I agree but he does imagine it's all real and if he can manage that ther's plenty of scope for him to imagine, well, who knows what? He's got plenty of scope.

And boy, some of them do use it! 

I'm going to imagine a cup of coffee sitting out in the garden with my lovely wife, (the lovely wife bit wasn't immaginary), now whilst trying to imagine the sun.

My good regards to you Len, ippy

How I envy you! Not for your beautiful wife, of course, but for the pleasure of feeling cooler. The day temps here haven't dropped below below 30º for months, and the nights are only slightly cooler. Right now, Eskimo land would feel like heaven to me. 

[/b][/i][/u]

That is how I felt when we had a brief heatwave a few weeks ago! 

I ain't difficult to please, Roses, and a joke is fine ... but a pantomime is too much! Even the locals are complaining about the continued high temps. Even some of the Mediterranean pines are giving up the ghost, and they are as hardy to drought as trees come!

[floo]

Yes Len I agree but he does imagine it's all real and if he can manage that ther's plenty of scope for him to imagine, well, who knows what? He's got plenty of scope.

And boy, some of them do use it! 

I'm going to imagine a cup of coffee sitting out in the garden with my lovely wife, (the lovely wife bit wasn't immaginary), now whilst trying to imagine the sun.

My good regards to you Len, ippy

How I envy you! Not for your beautiful wife, of course, but for the pleasure of feeling cooler. The day temps here haven't dropped below below 30º for months, and the nights are only slightly cooler. Right now, Eskimo land would feel like heaven to me. 

[/b][/i][/u]

That is how I felt when we had a brief heatwave a few weeks ago! 

I ain't difficult to please, Roses, and a joke is fine ... but a pantomime is too much! Even the locals are complaining about the continued high temps. Even some of the Mediterranean pines are giving up the ghost, and they are as hardy to drought as trees come!

We have had some rain but not enough for our poor garden! The birds have been enjoying dust baths the soil is so dry.

[Outrider]

Msg 3237 At least science can prove, test, retest, discover, improve, be robust, universally bloody important and is capable of change if new info is discovered and is fascinating and wonderful. Faith does non of these things IE faith answers nothing. Faith is a bit twee and "gets in the way"

To be fair, scientists should be explaining that they rarely prove anything in a philosophical sense. All scientific explanations are provisional; the best supported, the scientific 'laws' are always open to discredit from contrary evidence.

They are, by far and away, our most successful attempts to explain how the universe works, but very, very little in there is definitively proven. Even the phenomena we witness about which we hypothesis in order to conduct the experiments which feed into the body of evidence that is 'science' are only provisionally understood.

Faith, by contrast, pretends to offer reasons why things happen in the absence of any strong reason to think there's a reason at all, and not just natural causes all the way down...

O.