Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3881312 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3150 on: August 12, 2015, 08:18:06 AM »
You've developed your own philosophy of life, one that chimes well with your deeper characteristics, but there is no one size fits all formula for a happy life.

And I doubt there ever will be. Some people just can't be happy without a god in their life, others don't feel the need.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3151 on: August 12, 2015, 08:46:04 AM »
This has the same issues as those claiming supernatural events. We only have a methodology that works on the basis of natural assumptions. It could easily be that the famed leprechauns are the cause of absolutely everything - but we have no way of establishing it. We have no way to recognise a natural event as opposed to a supernatural event.

Yes and no. It will never lead to a demonstrably, necessarily true statement of fact, that's true.

It is, however, testable and therefore continually better supported and verifiable. At worst it shows we live in a non-naturalistic universe that consistently pretends to be one, which is functionally no difference.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3152 on: August 12, 2015, 08:51:20 AM »
Whooaa there boy.......Science is methodological naturalism, historically it has only some foundation in philosophical naturalism but many roots in theism.

The practice and history of science, perhaps, but the methodology no. Whether practiced by theists for the purposes of demonstrating the glory of a god's creation or by atheists seeking enlightenment, the methodology explicitly rules out divine intervention - creation no, but intervention, yes. It is, at best, compatible with deism.

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Philosophical materialism is drifted into from methodological naturalism through philosophical indiscipline.

No, not really. If you aren't presuming a natural cause for each event, you can't make hypothetical predictions or deductive explanations.

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Science can be carried out without philosophical naturalism.

I don't see how it can. At least for the duration of the scientific work you have to presume the absence of supernatural influences - that's definitionally philosophical naturalism.

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The idea that everyone doing science somehow gets in touch with their inner philosophical naturalist is complete mystical nonsense of the philosophical naturalist variety. We are unfortunate enough at present to have you, Shaker and I suppose we could include L James on this board peddling the myth.

I can accept that people who practice science, at other times in their lives accept ideas outside of philosophical naturalism, we're complex beings capable of a variety of 'modes'. However, the practice of science itself requires a presumption of philosophical naturalism or every 'conclusion' is invalidated by 'or the pixies wanted it that way'.

O.
[/quote]
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3153 on: August 12, 2015, 08:55:22 AM »
Whooa there boy.....who mentioned intelligent design?......although I admit Greene, Rees and others accommodate the possibility of simulated universes.

Apologies, I didn't mean to put ideas into your words, but I'm afraid I could't find the ideas that were supposed to be in there.

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A universe which follows a set of laws but has some measure of aseity is no deal breaker for many theists.

Right, but the fact that the evidence doesn't disprove theism isn't evidence for theism. To justify theism you have to have a reason to think that it's valid, otherwise you just have a variant of the 'god of the gaps' false dichotomy.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3154 on: August 12, 2015, 09:04:06 AM »
the fact that the evidence doesn't disprove theism isn't evidence for theism.
It does if you're called Hope.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3155 on: August 12, 2015, 09:07:09 AM »
the fact that the evidence doesn't disprove theism isn't evidence for theism.
It does if you're called Hope.

An argument stands or falls on its own merits, not on who makes it. You never know who's going to come up with a gem that changes the way you look at a problem.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3156 on: August 12, 2015, 09:47:40 AM »
Whooaa there boy.......Science is methodological naturalism, historically it has only some foundation in philosophical naturalism but many roots in theism.

The practice and history of science, perhaps, but the methodology no. Whether practiced by theists for the purposes of demonstrating the glory of a god's creation or by atheists seeking enlightenment, the methodology explicitly rules out divine intervention - creation no, but intervention, yes. It is, at best, compatible with deism.

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Philosophical materialism is drifted into from methodological naturalism through philosophical indiscipline.

No, not really. If you aren't presuming a natural cause for each event, you can't make hypothetical predictions or deductive explanations.

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Science can be carried out without philosophical naturalism.

I don't see how it can. At least for the duration of the scientific work you have to presume the absence of supernatural influences - that's definitionally philosophical naturalism.

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The idea that everyone doing science somehow gets in touch with their inner philosophical naturalist is complete mystical nonsense of the philosophical naturalist variety. We are unfortunate enough at present to have you, Shaker and I suppose we could include L James on this board peddling the myth.

I can accept that people who practice science, at other times in their lives accept ideas outside of philosophical naturalism, we're complex beings capable of a variety of 'modes'. However, the practice of science itself requires a presumption of philosophical naturalism or every 'conclusion' is invalidated by 'or the pixies wanted it that way'.

O.
[/quote]
In terms of Deism, that does not take into account the freedom of God or Gods to intervene
ON OCCASION. There is no reasonable argument not to propose such a situation.
How then would Science deal with the occasional intervention. Science is good with laws and repeatability...but not good in situations which are unrepeatable. History as far as we know is not repeatable although the reductionist might be tempted to recast everything in terms of repeatable physical and chemical events. That would IMHO not give a true picture of reality.

Thus we have a universe where at one level there is unrepeatability. An occasionally interfering Deity I would move  fits in with this. Whether science predicts it I am not sure...certainly not in it's reductionist idiom.

I disagree that when someone does science they become a philosophical naturalist since it is poor practice if science is carried out to prove a philosophy or have one as an end. Science is a tool and a method.

The grounds for religion are therefore philosophical, but also as I hope have demonstrated historical, social, anthropological and an existential response to it. Then of course we have to factor in religious experience. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 10:03:19 AM by Vlad aka Chuck aka Harry Secombe and a hundred other equally »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3157 on: August 12, 2015, 09:49:08 AM »
Msg 3276 AB Arrogant crap. What you claim is hopefully where the end of religion starts. When people start voicing more against this sort of tosh being banded about is a day worth hanging on for. When people start openly not respecting religious folks for their beliefs in all walks of life, with a bit of luck a massive penny will drop into their brain boxes. Its got to come. Its got to.
#3276 = another of AB's wading-through-treacle posts. What a pity he will not read your clear and concise response the way he should,.
Sorry but the words "clear and concise" certainly did not come into my mind when I read savillerow's post.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3158 on: August 12, 2015, 10:23:43 AM »
In terms of Deism, that does not take into account the freedom of God or Gods to intervene
ON OCCASION. There is no reasonable argument not to propose such a situation.

No reasonable argument not to, but we don't accept things just because they've been proposed. As well as suggesting it you need to give reason to accept the proposal - so far that's lacking.

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How then would Science deal with the occasional intervention. Science is good with laws and repeatability...but not good in situations which are unrepeatable.

Science doesn't - can't - deal with unreplicatable events. That's why it's the embodiment of philosophical naturalism.

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History as far as we know is not repeatable although the reductionist might be tempted to recast everything in terms of repeatable physical and chemical events. That would IMHO not give a true picture of reality.

History is a pattern - there are so many elements that the chances of repeating a broad-scale are infinitessimal. That doesn't change the underlying repeatability of components.

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Thus we have a universe where at one level there is unrepeatability.

No, we don't. We have a constantly changing pattern of individually repeating elements. The fact that the broad pattern is so complex that we don't have sufficient time to see an exact duplication doesn't mean that it's theoretically unrepeatable, just practically.

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An occasionally interfering Deity I would move  fits in with this. Whether science predicts it I am not sure...certainly not in it's reductionist idiom.

How do you differentiate an 'occasionally interfering Deity' from a complex interaction of natural events?

Quote
I disagree that when someone does science they become a philosophical naturalist since it is poor practice if science is carried out to prove a philosophy or have one as an end. Science is a tool and a method.

And an application of philosophical naturalism. Scientists don't set out to 'prove' philosophical naturalism, they set out with that assumption implicit in their methodology.

Quote
The grounds for religion are therefore philosophical, but also as I hope have demonstrated historical, social, anthropological and an existential response to it. Then of course we have to factor in religious experience.

The grounds for religion are, initially, ignorance and fear, later on cultural and social. Existential is a case-by-case - certainly without the initial searching for explanations and the cultural transfer, the specific religious tenets and structures we have would not emerge in the modern era purely from existential querying.

As to the religious experience, we have no reason to differentiate those claims from hallucinations except confirmation bias. Human beings are easily deceived, by external and internal phenomena.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3159 on: August 12, 2015, 10:39:31 AM »
Yes and no. It will never lead to a demonstrably, necessarily true statement of fact, that's true.

It is, however, testable and therefore continually better supported and verifiable. At worst it shows we live in a non-naturalistic universe that consistently pretends to be one, which is functionally no difference.

O.

Yes and no. It's not so much that it is better supported just that the other claim doesn't in the absence of a methodology even begin to make sense. We don't continually evidence that things are natural since teh investigation assumes it. I agree with your general point with Vlad that teh distinction between methodological and philosophical naturalism is not as clear as he might like since on a day to day level, we all tend to act with an assumption of philosophical naturalism.

On a intellectual level, we can go 'Of course. I'm not a philosophical naturalist' but it's the same statement as 'But, of course, we may not actually have anything like free will' - it's not how we live.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3160 on: August 12, 2015, 11:08:19 AM »
on a day to day level, we all tend to act with an assumption of philosophical naturalism.

On a day to day level we all tend to act with the assumption of philosophical naturalism?

How?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3161 on: August 12, 2015, 11:15:18 AM »
on a day to day level, we all tend to act with an assumption of philosophical naturalism.

On a day to day level we all tend to act with the assumption of philosophical naturalism?

How?
We catch buses, eat meals and use computers as if that is all there is. We don't philosophise and even most theists focus on how to deal with the now.

To be honest, as I have noted before, I don't even really think describing oneself as being philosophically something is anything more than post rationalisation of the kind that appeals to adolescent identifying.


I get by with my rough and ready (reminds me to post a song on the music thread) heuristics. Grand positions seem less and less tenable to me as I age.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3162 on: August 12, 2015, 11:34:13 AM »
In terms of Deism, that does not take into account the freedom of God or Gods to intervene
ON OCCASION. There is no reasonable argument not to propose such a situation.

No reasonable argument not to, but we don't accept things just because they've been proposed. As well as suggesting it you need to give reason to accept the proposal - so far that's lacking.

Quote
How then would Science deal with the occasional intervention. Science is good with laws and repeatability...but not good in situations which are unrepeatable.

Science doesn't - can't - deal with unreplicatable events. That's why it's the embodiment of philosophical naturalism.

Quote
History as far as we know is not repeatable although the reductionist might be tempted to recast everything in terms of repeatable physical and chemical events. That would IMHO not give a true picture of reality.

History is a pattern - there are so many elements that the chances of repeating a broad-scale are infinitessimal. That doesn't change the underlying repeatability of components.

Quote
Thus we have a universe where at one level there is unrepeatability.

No, we don't. We have a constantly changing pattern of individually repeating elements. The fact that the broad pattern is so complex that we don't have sufficient time to see an exact duplication doesn't mean that it's theoretically unrepeatable, just practically.

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An occasionally interfering Deity I would move  fits in with this. Whether science predicts it I am not sure...certainly not in it's reductionist idiom.

How do you differentiate an 'occasionally interfering Deity' from a complex interaction of natural events?

Quote
I disagree that when someone does science they become a philosophical naturalist since it is poor practice if science is carried out to prove a philosophy or have one as an end. Science is a tool and a method.

And an application of philosophical naturalism. Scientists don't set out to 'prove' philosophical naturalism, they set out with that assumption implicit in their methodology.

Quote
The grounds for religion are therefore philosophical, but also as I hope have demonstrated historical, social, anthropological and an existential response to it. Then of course we have to factor in religious experience.

The grounds for religion are, initially, ignorance and fear, later on cultural and social. Existential is a case-by-case - certainly without the initial searching for explanations and the cultural transfer, the specific religious tenets and structures we have would not emerge in the modern era purely from existential querying.

As to the religious experience, we have no reason to differentiate those claims from hallucinations except confirmation bias. Human beings are easily deceived, by external and internal phenomena.

O.
It is not a question of just accepting things because they are proposed....that is a case of what I observe to be atheist paranoia...that one is and can be forced to believe something.

I merely say that such a God Is reasonably philosophically accommodated. If you wish to chase Him out of that accommodation then I would move something else is going on.

Not sure I agree with your definition of history that it is a pattern. You would need to expand on that.

In terms of having to be a philosophical materialist or assuming it for science. I would move that that is not at all necessary since I am merely using a tool on a specific Job i.e. matter/ energy. That is no more significant than using  Brobat to clean my toilet....in what way there do I become a 'philosophical Brobatist'. In any case nothing about any result in science necessarily leads to philosophical naturalism. E= MC squared...not E=PN.

The grounds for religion are not necessarily ignorance and fear. But the question ''why is there anything anyway?'', ''Why am I here?'','' Is the self really an illusion'' and scores of other questions.

On a final note how is someone who fights existentially to establish in themselves that they don't actually exist going to have room for actual existential experience?

What do you mean by hallucination? Since the use of God as an illusion has faced the pertinent point that illusions are of illusions of things which do exist.

Finally confirmation bias. Confirmation by what? Confirmation of what? since much religious experience does not seem to depend on the empirical senses.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3163 on: August 12, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
on a day to day level, we all tend to act with an assumption of philosophical naturalism.

On a day to day level we all tend to act with the assumption of philosophical naturalism?

How?
We catch buses, eat meals and use computers as if that is all there is. We don't philosophise and even most theists focus on how to deal with the now.

To be honest, as I have noted before, I don't even really think describing oneself as being philosophically something is anything more than post rationalisation of the kind that appeals to adolescent identifying.


I get by with my rough and ready (reminds me to post a song on the music thread) heuristics. Grand positions seem less and less tenable to me as I age.
Oh. do be careful Sane with your poetical,philosophical and scientific mash ups and what's this contradiction in terms ''I'm just a simple guy with rough and ready heuristics''? Heuristics eh, hardly man at the bus stop type talk.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3164 on: August 12, 2015, 11:45:55 AM »
Oh. do be careful Sane with your poetical,philosophical and scientific mash ups and what's this contradiction in terms ''I'm just a simple guy with rough and ready heuristics''? Heuristics eh, hardly man at the bus stop type talk.
Neither is aseity.

And neither is Brobatist, whatever the hell that is.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3165 on: August 12, 2015, 11:47:06 AM »
What do we have other than empirical senses? How would we even know we had them since surely the statement that 'I have something that is based on a non empirical sense is made and experienced by the empirical senses?'

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3166 on: August 12, 2015, 11:50:40 AM »
No, I'm in no way presenting myself as the man at the bus stop, but I think as with many things the idea that one is somehow presenting a fully thought out consistent philosophy is an adolescent fantasy.


Most of what we seek to care about is linguistically bereft.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3167 on: August 12, 2015, 11:54:25 AM »
Oh. do be careful Sane with your poetical,philosophical and scientific mash ups and what's this contradiction in terms ''I'm just a simple guy with rough and ready heuristics''? Heuristics eh, hardly man at the bus stop type talk.
Neither is aseity.

And neither is Brobatist, whatever the hell that is.
But that's OK because I don't get the bus.

A Philosophical Brobatist is someone who believes that Brobat is the only true central reality....that all else exists just for Brobat and that which is cleaned by Brobat.

A methodological brobatists merely uses Brobat as a tool to clean dirty toilets with.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3168 on: August 12, 2015, 11:57:11 AM »
No, I'm in no way presenting myself as the man at the bus stop, but I think as with many things the idea that one is somehow presenting a fully thought out consistent philosophy is an adolescent fantasy.


Most of what we seek to care about is linguistically bereft.
I develop a philosophy because I get involved in Christian apologetics.......

Let's face it if discussing philosophy is adolescent....what are YOU doing on this Forum?

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3169 on: August 12, 2015, 11:57:56 AM »
I do not attempt to read Vlad's posts, but do admire those who write responses to them.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3170 on: August 12, 2015, 11:58:24 AM »
Msg 3276 AB Arrogant crap. What you claim is hopefully where the end of religion starts. When people start voicing more against this sort of tosh being banded about is a day worth hanging on for. When people start openly not respecting religious folks for their beliefs in all walks of life, with a bit of luck a massive penny will drop into their brain boxes. Its got to come. Its got to.
#3276 = another of AB's wading-through-treacle posts. What a pity he will not read your clear and concise response the way he should,.
Sorry but the words "clear and concise" certainly did not come into my mind when I read savillerow's post.

Well if you're a delusional type personality Alan, when clear and concise common sense is presented to you it would be very difficult for you to understand it, no surprise there.

ippy

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3171 on: August 12, 2015, 12:01:48 PM »
It is not a question of just accepting things because they are proposed....that is a case of what I observe to be atheist paranoia...that one is and can be forced to believe something.

I merely say that such a God Is reasonably philosophically accommodated. If you wish to chase Him out of that accommodation then I would move something else is going on.

I don't need to chase him out, because there's no reason to posit a god in the first place. Whilst, philosophically, there is nothing to disprove the suggestion of god, there's equally nothing to disprove the suggestion of celestial teapots, pixies, leprechauns, unicorns, Vishnu, Wise Coyote, Ameratsu, Zeus or the Marches of the Creator Beings during the Dreamtime.

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Not sure I agree with your definition of history that it is a pattern. You would need to expand on that.

What we call history is an interpretation of the interaction of various forces - selected and identified according to our particular cultural biases, personal knowledge, publicly available information and our preconceptions. That creates a 'pattern' in our understanding of how time A came to be time B. Elements of the pattern we place emphasis on, and if sufficient people agree with that emphasis that becomes a general consensus, and when similar events occur people try to imprint the pattern over the new events to predict the outcome.

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In terms of having to be a philosophical materialist or assuming it for science. I would move that that is not at all necessary since I am merely using a tool on a specific Job i.e. matter/ energy. That is no more significant than using  Brobat to clean my toilet....in what way there do I become a 'philosophical Brobatist'. In any case nothing about any result in science necessarily leads to philosophical naturalism. E= MC squared...not E=PN.

If, as a scientist, you aren't assuming philosophical naturalism, you are removing the assumption of cause and effect - without that cause and effect, science doesn't work. Implicit in conducting science is assuming philosophical naturalism.

Science is not a tool in the sense of a hammer, it's a tool in the sense of a methodology. Methodologies have implicit assumptions that have to be employed in order for the methodology to work. A hammer has physical requirements.

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The grounds for religion are not necessarily ignorance and fear. But the question ''why is there anything anyway?'', ''Why am I here?'','' Is the self really an illusion'' and scores of other questions.

The origins of religion, it seems most likely, were an evolution of simple superstitions over the origin of unexplainable phenomena such as lightning, flash-floods etc. Deeper questions like 'why is there anything anyway' or 'why are we here' not only came later, but are question begging: what makes you think there's a reason?

'Is the self really an illusion', depending on your interpretation of the question, is excellently answered in Bruce Hood's psychology/neurology introductory work 'The Self Illusion'.

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On a final note how is someone who fights existentially to establish in themselves that they don't actually exist going to have room for actual existential experience?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at, there.

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What do you mean by hallucination? Since the use of God as an illusion has faced the pertinent point that illusions are of illusions of things which do exist.

A hallucination in the medical understanding of having sensory experiences that aren't actually triggered by the associated sensory organs, or by any sensory organs at all, or that don't directly associate with sensory input of the time.

Illusions do not have to be illusions of things that exist - MC Escher or Salvador Dali more than adequately demonstrate that.

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Finally confirmation bias. Confirmation by what? Confirmation of what? since much religious experience does not seem to depend on the empirical senses.

Religious experience doesn't depend on the empirical senses in all instances - though there are some that make the claim - but many religious people having come to the religious experience then attempt to demonstrate rationally that it's necessarily correct. In those instances, confirmation bias is readily in evidence.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3172 on: August 12, 2015, 12:26:05 PM »
No, I'm in no way presenting myself as the man at the bus stop, but I think as with many things the idea that one is somehow presenting a fully thought out consistent philosophy is an adolescent fantasy.


Most of what we seek to care about is linguistically bereft.
I develop a philosophy because I get involved in Christian apologetics.......

Let's face it if discussing philosophy is adolescent....what are YOU doing on this Forum?

I haven't said that. Please make sure you don't make up stuff.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3173 on: August 12, 2015, 12:35:32 PM »
It is not a question of just accepting things because they are proposed....that is a case of what I observe to be atheist paranoia...that one is and can be forced to believe something.

I merely say that such a God Is reasonably philosophically accommodated. If you wish to chase Him out of that accommodation then I would move something else is going on.

I don't need to chase him out, because there's no reason to posit a god in the first place. Whilst, philosophically, there is nothing to disprove the suggestion of god, there's equally nothing to disprove the suggestion of celestial teapots, pixies, leprechauns, unicorns, Vishnu, Wise Coyote, Ameratsu, Zeus or the Marches of the Creator Beings during the Dreamtime.


No reason to posit a God in the first place? How so? since there is patently a universe here it is not illegitimate to ask why is all this here? Was it created?

I think you're along, long way off having no reason to posit a God.

I can categorise your long list of what I take you to have put in as ''laughables'' (argumentum ad ridiculum) into those which create and contingent. Also what you are trying to do is to slyly create a pantheon out of unified divine by farming out and separating attributes.(Trivialisation) That was all Shoddy argumentum ad ridiculum on your part IMHO.

Your new definition of history....how does that fit in with your previous statement History is a pattern where pattern seemed to suggest a pattern as in a pattern of phenomena...like science.
History is a continuum but is not a repeating pattern. History does not subsequently equate with science.

Your definition of hallucination is one that I used although I would argue that religious experience does not often involve artifacts of touch, smell, vision, hearing of taste since there generally the claim is that God does not have physical attributes.

I don't think Dali and Escher examples are adequate for your defence that you can have illusions of things that don't exist....perhaps you need to expand.

Bruce Hood should have learned the lessons learned by Dawkins when he ended up having to justify and have others justify his jazzy, slick and controversial titles.
 
 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 12:47:41 PM by Vlad aka Chuck aka Harry Secombe and a hundred other equally »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3174 on: August 12, 2015, 12:50:42 PM »
I do not attempt to read Vlad's posts, but do admire those who write responses to them.
Yes Susan... You are the Betty Grable pin up girl of antitheism. I bet the boys even have a picture of you in their metal lockers which they kiss every time they go out on a sortie to philosophically give theists ''one in the eye''.