Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremely rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

[Shaker]

Confirmation bias, Alan.

[BeRational]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremeley rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I see on another thread you are asking for prayer for a friend in dire need.

Why would God of nd something so trivial for you, and yet not heal your friend?

Does God wait until enough prayer requests come in before she acts?

[BashfulAnthony]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremeley rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I see on another thread you are asking for prayer for a friend in dire need.

Why would God of nd something so trivial for you, and yet not heal your friend?

Does God wait until enough prayer requests come in before she acts?

Why "she?"  You are very silly.

[BeRational]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremeley rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I see on another thread you are asking for prayer for a friend in dire need.

Why would God of nd something so trivial for you, and yet not heal your friend?

Does God wait until enough prayer requests come in before she acts?

Why "she?"  You are very silly.

Why not?

Does your God have genitals?

[Alan Burns]

Confirmation bias, Alan.

The ultimate confirmation occurs when (if) you enter heaven

[Shaker]

Convenient for you to say that, isn't it?

Don't you have something a bit more ... well, tangible to offer than that?

[BashfulAnthony]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremeley rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I see on another thread you are asking for prayer for a friend in dire need.

Why would God of nd something so trivial for you, and yet not heal your friend?

Does God wait until enough prayer requests come in before she acts?

Why "she?"  You are very silly.

Why not?

Does your God have genitals?

Idiot!!  Jesus refers to God as "He,"  and I'll go with that rather than your ignorant and take.

[torridon]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremely rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I sometimes attend Mass at my local catholic church and there is always one or two parishioners ill in hospital or dying in a hospice, and at some stage the entire congregation is led in prayer by the priest for these unfortunate individuals.  I am not entirely blind to the value in this; keeping loved ones in our thoughts at their time of need strengthens bonds and communities and maybe sometimes the psychological boost of all that well wishing might indeed spur someone on to a speedier recovery.

But on the other hand those awful things, facts and figures, they don't really lend support to any notion of anything truly miraculous going on. Catholics continue to suffer and die in our hospitals at pretty much the same rate as all other groups, despite the intercessionary prayers of hundreds of well wishers. If there were any real effect you can bet that NHS managers would be on to it like a shot, dispensing with expensive hospital consultants and pharmaceuticals and replacing them with much cheaper teams of christians praying.

Well of course, that does not happen, and pretty much every ill parishioner will take the view that why not have the best of both worlds, apply the best insights we have gleaned from research, and then pray as well, what harm could it do ? Maybe the harm is little, maybe the benefits might outweigh whatever misgivings a rationalist mind might have about it.  But it does seem to me to involve a community wide tacit indulgence of a curious sort of doublethink.  We are modern people, we value research and evidence, but we are still going to witch doctors on the quiet.

[jeremyp]

Idiot!!  Jesus refers to God as "He,"  and I'll go with that rather than your ignorant and take.

So Jesus thought God had genitals.

[BashfulAnthony]

Idiot!!  Jesus refers to God as "He,"  and I'll go with that rather than your ignorant and take.

So Jesus thought God had genitals.

You really are a nasty piece!  You can always be relied on to reduce a deeply serious subject to the gutter.  You seem to think you are  aware and informed:  all you are aware of, and informed about, are the latest crudities to spout, perhaps under the impression that you are street-wise, or some such triviality.

[Outrider]

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremely rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

It doesn't become 'miraculous' when it coincides with a prayer it becomes (and the clue is in the wording) co-incidental.

If you track the number of rare events (low) and the number of prayers  (inordinately high) eventually you are going to get some that coincide. To think otherwise is to significantly underestimate the number of things in the universe (to paraphrase Tim Minchin).

The 'miracle' here is how many 'unanswered' prayers there are, but people still cling to the absurd notion that they work because of a few statistically insignificant co-incidences.

O.

[BeRational]

Idiot!!  Jesus refers to God as "He,"  and I'll go with that rather than your ignorant and take.

So Jesus thought God had genitals.

You really are a nasty piece!  You can always be relied on to reduce a deeply serious subject to the gutter.  You seem to think you are  aware and informed:  all you are aware of, and informed about, are the latest crudities to spout, perhaps under the impression that you are street-wise, or some such triviality.

Are you male?

Do you have genitals?

How can your God be a he without genitals?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Ah! Definition of male, you must have bollocks!! You know what!! I see gullible people everywhere.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,

Ah! Definition of male, you must have bollocks!! You know what!! I see gullible people everywhere.

Gonnagle.

What is bad about genitals?

I do not understand this fear.

Does your group  have male chromosomes?

In what way is the sex of your god determined?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm minded of something CS is supposed to have said. Prayer doesn't change God it changes me. Perhaps we look at prayer the wrong way round after all aren't we tuning into God.

Your antitheist, wants prayer, like all the other religious terminology in order to shape his own nefarious ends.

[Alan Burns]

'Extremely rare' does not equal 'miraculous', it equals 'extremely rare'. The difference is philosophical. Rare events will occur naturally by virtue of probability, that does not imply some supernatural intervention breaking natural law has taken place.

It becomes miraculous when it coincides with an answer to prayer.  Extremely rare events by their definition will probably not happen when you wish them to, but a prayer certainly helps it to happen when it is needed.

I sometimes attend Mass at my local catholic church and there is always one or two parishioners ill in hospital or dying in a hospice, and at some stage the entire congregation is led in prayer by the priest for these unfortunate individuals.  I am not entirely blind to the value in this; keeping loved ones in our thoughts at their time of need strengthens bonds and communities and maybe sometimes the psychological boost of all that well wishing might indeed spur someone on to a speedier recovery.

But on the other hand those awful things, facts and figures, they don't really lend support to any notion of anything truly miraculous going on. Catholics continue to suffer and die in our hospitals at pretty much the same rate as all other groups, despite the intercessionary prayers of hundreds of well wishers. If there were any real effect you can bet that NHS managers would be on to it like a shot, dispensing with expensive hospital consultants and pharmaceuticals and replacing them with much cheaper teams of christians praying.

Well of course, that does not happen, and pretty much every ill parishioner will take the view that why not have the best of both worlds, apply the best insights we have gleaned from research, and then pray as well, what harm could it do ? Maybe the harm is little, maybe the benefits might outweigh whatever misgivings a rationalist mind might have about it.  But it does seem to me to involve a community wide tacit indulgence of a curious sort of doublethink.  We are modern people, we value research and evidence, but we are still going to witch doctors on the quiet.

No one wants to die or suffer pain, but these things are part of life and everyone has to endure them.  We are often called to pray for God to intervene and help those who are dying or in pain, and the intervention is not always the miraculous one we hope for, but I fervently believe that no prayer goes to waste and they all help to bring God's help to those in need and to endure whatever comes.

[BeRational]

I'm minded of something CS is supposed to have said. Prayer doesn't change God it changes me. Perhaps we look at prayer the wrong way round after all aren't we tuning into God.

Your antitheist, wants prayer, like all the other religious terminology in order to shape his own nefarious ends.

Not me.

I just want a test to understand how it works.

At the moment it gives the same result as no god existing.

Its all random and all explicable by other natural means.

For example god never heals amputees no matter how many prayers are said.
It will of course find car keys and heal conditions that natural heal anyway.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If you track the number of rare events (low) and the number of prayers  (inordinately high) eventually you are going to get some that coincide. To think otherwise is to significantly underestimate the number of things in the universe (to paraphrase Tim Minchin).

Tim Minchin eh?

Apparently Tim was about to give a performance but complained to his manager that he couldn't go on stage because he felt ''A bit funny''.

His manager told him to get ''get on quick before it wore off...''



You asked for it.

[Rhiannon]

I'm minded of something CS is supposed to have said. Prayer doesn't change God it changes me. Perhaps we look at prayer the wrong way round after all aren't we tuning into God.

Your antitheist, wants prayer, like all the other religious terminology in order to shape his own nefarious ends.

I have some sympathy with your first paragraph. 'Change me so I can fix...' 'Change me so I can cope with...' 'Change me so I don't need to' all seem like valid things to ask deity for. But any other kind of petitionary prayer '- 'Fix this for me' -  puts us back to wanting stuff for being in God's club, however important or valid the stuff might be.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm minded of something CS is supposed to have said. Prayer doesn't change God it changes me. Perhaps we look at prayer the wrong way round after all aren't we tuning into God.

Your antitheist, wants prayer, like all the other religious terminology in order to shape his own nefarious ends.

Not me.

I just want a test to understand how it works.

At the moment it gives the same result as no god existing.

Its all random and all explicable by other natural means.

For example god never heals amputees no matter how many prayers are said.
It will of course find car keys and heal conditions that natural heal anyway.

I think there is an overuse of the world miracle introduced with charismatic Christianity which never formalised it's definitions.

Miracles of biblical proportions are the very things which would slip under the radar.

I think the NT itself recognises this over the resurrection and Pentecost.

[jjohnjil]

Prayers are purely for the one doing the praying, it makes them feel they are doing something when they really can do nothing.  I used to pray as a kid 'God keep mum and dad safe' for instance - and I felt I had done all I could do.

Those poor victims of 9/11 up in the twin towers, they all prayed, theist and atheist alike!  When my kids have been ill I have prayed and I'm not ashamed to admit it.  If it helps you to cope with a situation then do it!

[jeremyp]

You really are a nasty piece!  You can always be relied on to reduce a deeply serious subject to the gutter.  You seem to think you are  aware and informed:  all you are aware of, and informed about, are the latest crudities to spout, perhaps under the impression that you are street-wise, or some such triviality.

You think this is a serious subject?  We're discussing whether the creator of the Universe had testicles or not.

Insult noted by the way.  If you want to discuss something seriously, it's best not to insult other people in your posts.

[floo]

Idiot!!  Jesus refers to God as "He,"  and I'll go with that rather than your ignorant and take.

So Jesus thought God had genitals.

I suppose Jesus referred to the deity as male because the guy would be unlikely to conceive of the idea of a deity being female in those far off days when the female of the species was regarded as subservient to the male!  If the deity exists it is likely to be genderless, otherwise if would of course have a penis and testicles if it was male! Mind you, if it bonked that poor lass Mary it would have required the right equipment!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Father in Heaven, just a name, historically a male dominated religion, happily that is changing.

Mother nature, is nature female?

Gonnagle.