Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3890091 times)

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3575 on: September 01, 2015, 03:38:23 PM »
Superb post, torridon. (As usual).
You need to be a bit more critical, Shaker.
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Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3576 on: September 01, 2015, 03:38:41 PM »
Excellent post,  Torri.  :)
You too, enki.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3577 on: September 01, 2015, 03:39:21 PM »
So might the view that we have no free will. Are you saying you can demonstrate there is no such thing as free will?
No. I'm saying that there is a growing body of evidence from neuroscience that free will is likely an illusion.
A growing body? So not proven yet then?
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No, it is not a straight translation. Translation is done between one language and another. "All powerful" and "omnipotent" are both English. Omnipotent comes from omnis + potens (if my I recall my O-Level correctly). Hippopotamus is made up of two Greek words, literally meaning "horse" and "river". By you "logic" it would mean that a hippopotamus is literally a horse in the river.
... which is what ignorant people long ago took it to be, hence the name.
Interesting. Please point me to your evidence for this claim.
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'Omnipotent' and 'all-powerful' are synonyms.
Not according to the OED. For them "omnipotent" means

1. (Of a deity) having unlimited power:
God is described as omnipotent and benevolent


or

1.1 Having great power and influence:
an omnipotent sovereign


whereas "allpowerful" is

Having complete power:
an all-powerful dictator


We could argue about definitions though until we are blue in the face. However, it makes more sense to understand each other's ideas and actual claims and Christians do not claim that God can do absolutely anything.
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Try that in non-cocky English
I don't do non-cocky English.
Which weakens your argument somewhat, but that's up to you.
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It does not rely on semantic sleight of hand; it points out that an "omnipotent being" cannot do every conceivable thing.
Yes it does. That's what omnipotent means. It's only when people realise that this leads to ridiculous absurdities that they do the lingustic dodge of making 'all-powerful' mean 'not actually all powerful after all.'
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Thinking that such a being could do every conceivable thing is the sort of thing a 7 year old philosopher might come up with but we are meant to be adults.
We're all meant to be and some of us actually are. If you lot were adults you wouldn't be addling your brains with this God nonsense.
Let me ask you to give your evidence for claiming that, "It's only when people realise that this leads to ridiculous absurdities that they do the lingustic dodge of making 'all-powerful' mean 'not actually all powerful after all." Just wanting it to be the case does not count as evidence.

Of all the people who could legitimately ask for evidence, Alan, you are the very last in the queue!

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3578 on: September 01, 2015, 03:40:22 PM »
Superb post, torridon. (As usual).
And yet you will doubtless abandon his conclusions if ever you find a ''common sense'' solution fits your needs a bit better.

The great thing about science is that you are allowed to abandon conclusions if a new explanation comes along that fits the facts better.  In fact, it is considered to be a strength of the scientific method.
Ditto looking at some Christian stuff. Remember, you were the spur for me to change my mind on how to understand Genesis 1-3, old fruit.
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Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3579 on: September 01, 2015, 03:42:53 PM »
...

Of all the people who could legitimately ask for evidence, Alan, you are the very last in the queue!
I am always (well, nearly always) encouraged when someone comes up with an tu quoque or ad hominem rather than argue against my actual argument.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3580 on: September 01, 2015, 04:34:33 PM »
Which ones?
Theology. If Jesus tomb' and remains were found that would alter theology.
That's a hypothetical.  We won't know if you re correct on that one until Jesus' remains are found.

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Knuckle dragging antitheists knock theology for being fixed in stone and then claim it's all crap at the slightest change. An arseclenching act of special pleading if you ask me.

Boneheaded lying theists such as yourself misrepresent the problems atheists have with theology.  The main reason we knock theology is because theologists never check that their ideas fit with the facts.  In particular, they haven't verified there there is a god to be theological about.

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History
History is a form of science albeit one beset with a number of unique challenges. 
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3581 on: September 01, 2015, 04:43:21 PM »

History is a form of science albeit one beset with a number of unique challenges.
History deals with unique historical events, Science doesn't.

Sorry to extinguish your bonfire..........

You can't help your intellectual totalitarianism, Can you?

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3582 on: September 01, 2015, 04:45:59 PM »

History deals with unique historical events, Science doesn't.


How many Big Bangs have there ever been? 

You really do walk into these don't you.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3583 on: September 01, 2015, 04:49:07 PM »

History deals with unique historical events, Science doesn't.


How many Big Bangs have there ever been? 

You really do walk into these don't you.
I understand science is having a bit of trouble with the big bang because the laws of physics seem to ''break down''........Hasn't science subcontracted the big bang to mathematics?

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3584 on: September 01, 2015, 04:52:11 PM »

History deals with unique historical events, Science doesn't.


How many Big Bangs have there ever been? 

You really do walk into these don't you.
I understand science is having a bit of trouble with the big bang because the laws of physics seem to ''break down''........Hasn't science subcontracted the big bang to mathematics?

Science subcontracts a lot of things to mathematics.  Theology, on the other hand, subcontracts things to wishful thinking.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3585 on: September 01, 2015, 05:05:06 PM »

History deals with unique historical events, Science doesn't.


How many Big Bangs have there ever been? 

You really do walk into these don't you.
I understand science is having a bit of trouble with the big bang because the laws of physics seem to ''break down''........Hasn't science subcontracted the big bang to mathematics?

Science subcontracts a lot of things to mathematics.  Theology, on the other hand, subcontracts things to wishful thinking.
Any evidence of that or did you just say it to give your fellows the horn?
No sometimes it looks at historical documents.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3586 on: September 01, 2015, 05:37:27 PM »

That we have apparent free will, is eeerm, apparent. Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower.
So sometimes what seems obviously true is not true. I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but what evidence is there that freewill does not exist? We could bung in lots of words instead of "free will" in your statement. Let's try "external minds".

That there are apparently external minds, is eeerm, apparent. "Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower."

See? I've changed the subject of your statement and it no more demonstrates that external minds (external to mine or yours) do not exist than your original statement demonstrated the non-existence of free will.

I don't think you thought that through very well, if your point is that solipsism is demonstrated by application of the same logic.  That there are external minds is both apparent, intuitively valid and consistent with science; free-will on the other hand is intuitive, apparent, but not consistent with science.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3587 on: September 01, 2015, 05:39:35 PM »

Any evidence of that or did you just say it to give your fellows the horn?


It's pretty obvious.  Theologists wish there is a god, but they never stop to think how they could test that assertion.

Quote
No sometimes it looks at historical documents.

Sometimes? 
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Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3588 on: September 01, 2015, 05:44:32 PM »
...
History is a form of science albeit one beset with a number of unique challenges.
I've not heard that one before. Which universities have history in the science department?
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Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3589 on: September 01, 2015, 05:46:14 PM »

That we have apparent free will, is eeerm, apparent. Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower.
So sometimes what seems obviously true is not true. I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but what evidence is there that freewill does not exist? We could bung in lots of words instead of "free will" in your statement. Let's try "external minds".

That there are apparently external minds, is eeerm, apparent. "Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower."

See? I've changed the subject of your statement and it no more demonstrates that external minds (external to mine or yours) do not exist than your original statement demonstrated the non-existence of free will.

I don't think you thought that through very well, if your point is that solipsism is demonstrated by application of the same logic.  That there are external minds is both apparent, intuitively valid and consistent with science; free-will on the other hand is intuitive, apparent, but not consistent with science.
How is free will not consistent with science?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3590 on: September 01, 2015, 05:46:27 PM »

Any evidence of that or did you just say it to give your fellows the horn?


It's pretty obvious.  Theologists wish there is a god, but they never stop to think how they could test that assertion.

Many didn't wish there was a God. The writer of Isaiah, St Paul an Augustine to name but three.

Of course Theologians only sometimes look at historical documents, if they were doing it all the time they would be historians.

History is not theology or science.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3591 on: September 01, 2015, 06:37:29 PM »
Excellent post,  Torri.  :)
You too, enki.

I tend towards the viewpoint that there is no ghost within the machine, and that what we call free will is probably the result of the complexity of our brains. There is plenty of evidence that many people whose brains have been damaged respond quite differently to stimuli in contrast to how they did before the damage took place. Perhaps it's partly a case of the brain acting upon the information it absorbs to make its decisions. It may be true that quantum indeterminacy plays a part in this, but, if so, this still would not be a case for free will.

With the above in mind, I think I understand where Torridon is coming from. And I think he expressed it beautifully, so I think I would disagree with you about being more critical, unless, of course, you can bring powerful evidence to the table that free will actually exists..in which case, I might well change my mind.   ;) :D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3592 on: September 01, 2015, 07:04:59 PM »
Excellent post,  Torri.  :)
You too, enki.

I tend towards the viewpoint that there is no ghost within the machine, and that what we call free will is probably the result of the complexity of our brains. There is plenty of evidence that many people whose brains have been damaged respond quite differently to stimuli in contrast to how they did before the damage took place. Perhaps it's partly a case of the brain acting upon the information it absorbs to make its decisions. It may be true that quantum indeterminacy plays a part in this, but, if so, this still would not be a case for free will.

With the above in mind, I think I understand where Torridon is coming from. And I think he expressed it beautifully, so I think I would disagree with you about being more critical, unless, of course, you can bring powerful evidence to the table that free will actually exists..in which case, I might well change my mind.   ;) :D
I've just had a thought......it isn't so much that there is no ghost.......but there is no machine.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3593 on: September 01, 2015, 09:01:57 PM »
Excellent post,  Torri.  :)
You too, enki.

I tend towards the viewpoint that there is no ghost within the machine, and that what we call free will is probably the result of the complexity of our brains. There is plenty of evidence that many people whose brains have been damaged respond quite differently to stimuli in contrast to how they did before the damage took place. Perhaps it's partly a case of the brain acting upon the information it absorbs to make its decisions. It may be true that quantum indeterminacy plays a part in this, but, if so, this still would not be a case for free will.

With the above in mind, I think I understand where Torridon is coming from. And I think he expressed it beautifully, so I think I would disagree with you about being more critical, unless, of course, you can bring powerful evidence to the table that free will actually exists..in which case, I might well change my mind.   ;) :D
I've just had a thought......it isn't so much that there is no ghost.......but there is no machine.

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment. ;)
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3594 on: September 01, 2015, 09:10:26 PM »
...
History is a form of science albeit one beset with a number of unique challenges.
I've not heard that one before. Which universities have history in the science department?
It's a science in the sense that you observe the evidence, make hypotheses and then search for more evidence to support your hypothesis.  Of course, you can't do experiments and the evidence is often very sparse, but it is still scientific in nature.

In particular, assuming the existence of a supernatural entity in order to make the hypothesis you like more "plausible" is as invalid in history as in physics.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3595 on: September 01, 2015, 09:17:24 PM »
History is not science but it is methodologically naturalistic

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3596 on: September 01, 2015, 09:22:44 PM »

Many didn't wish there was a God. The writer of Isaiah, St Paul an Augustine to name but three.

I didn't realise that two of those were regarded as theologians.  As for Augustine, how did he show there is a god?

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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3597 on: September 02, 2015, 07:29:09 AM »

That we have apparent free will, is eeerm, apparent. Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower.
So sometimes what seems obviously true is not true. I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but what evidence is there that freewill does not exist? We could bung in lots of words instead of "free will" in your statement. Let's try "external minds".

That there are apparently external minds, is eeerm, apparent. "Lots of things seem untuitively undeniable to us, but that is often a facet of how things seem to us. The chair I am sitting on feels solid, but it isn't, really. Look out of the window, the sky looks blue, but it isn't, really. I feel like a human, but by cell count I am really a bacterial colony on legs. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.  But if you want to develop a deeper understanding of what we are, that entails delving down and dismissing our illusions in order to come to terms with the underlying realities of life, and there is nothing that we have discovered through research that would lend support to the idea that we are truly free. Like all else in life, we are the ultimately products of natural law, our choices express natural law, we cannot fashion it, subvert it, avoid it, or remake it by willpower."

See? I've changed the subject of your statement and it no more demonstrates that external minds (external to mine or yours) do not exist than your original statement demonstrated the non-existence of free will.

I don't think you thought that through very well, if your point is that solipsism is demonstrated by application of the same logic.  That there are external minds is both apparent, intuitively valid and consistent with science; free-will on the other hand is intuitive, apparent, but not consistent with science.
How is free will not consistent with science?

Science has revealed an observed, material world that is ovewhelmingly true to the principal of cause and effect. Victorian science gave us a clockwork universe with no room at all for freedom from determinism; now the issue is muddied by discovery of the quantum substrate in which unobserved reality is probabilistic and perhaps whereas Sartre gave us existence precedes essence, we could now mischieviously add probability precedes existence but notwithstanding that the notion of free-will offends the principal of cause and effect which is seen to pertain at the levels of chemistry, biology and up. Things happen for a reason; a ball thrown in the air pretty much always comes back down again, it rarely ever flies off at a tangent or morphs into a bowl of petunuias. If we make a choice, it must be for a reason, even if we cannot discern the reason.

Those who argue that quantum indeterminacy could be a basis for free will are arguing a foolish case.  There may be some genuine randomness in the cosmos, in which case there might be some randomness in the choices made in human brains but randomness is an enemy of purposefulness, you cannot claim accidental choices as part of your volition. What any such indeterminacy would give us would be a measure of (relative) unpredictability; this would be of potential value to a prey animal (which humans are) as a predators depend on their ability to predict the behaviour of their prey. Unpredictabiity could be of value to adaptive predators (which humans are) as it would help them to explore a greater diversity of opportunities and niches. But unpredictability is not will. Will is a manifestion of the ubiquitous principal of cause and effect at the messy complex level of animal behaviours and I see nothing from biology or neuroscience to suggest that human brains are so categorically different from other animal brains as to suppose that humans can escape the great chain of cause and effect. Things happen for reasons, and it is good that it is so.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 07:52:31 AM by torridon »

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3598 on: September 02, 2015, 08:07:41 AM »

If we make a choice, it must be for a reason, even if we cannot discern the reason.


The usual reason is that acting in a certain way will be more advantageous to us than not doing so, but we are not compelled to obey.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3599 on: September 02, 2015, 08:14:39 AM »
a ball thrown in the air pretty much always comes back down again, it rarely ever flies off at a tangent or morphs into a bowl of petunuias.

I think that's missiles, isn't it? Of course, that's discounting the equal probability of them turning into whales.

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"Not again!"

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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