Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

Very gracious apology, Alan. The issue remains though that if bad outcomes or design are not disproof because you cannot tell the reason, anything cited as a good outcome or design is not justified for the exact same reason.

[Rhiannon]

Thanks for the apology, Alan.

So how do you square your belief in the intelligent design of the eye with the distressing and often fatal problems that women have had through millennia in giving birth?

[Outrider]

But the denial of God's existence because of our ability to pick fault with our lives is profoundly misplaced.

That rather depends on whether the god being posited is the traditional all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving one at the core of the Abrahamic faiths. The existence of evil in a world created by such a god makes no sense - the problem of evil is a long-standing issue that Christian (and, to a lesser extent, Islamic) theology has never really got to grips with.

The standard method is to blame humanity for its own ills - fair enough in its own regard, but still ignoring the fact that we are allegedly the creation of a perfect god, and such evil as there is exists in the sure and certain foreknowledge of a god that exists outside of our time and who therefore is not limited by the veil of events as yet unseen.

We do not live in a perfect world.

Why not? If God is perfect and unlimited and made the world, why is the world not perfect?

Every human being will experience some suffering or hardship.  I do not profess to know why things are as they are, but I have faith in God's love for us.

And that's lovely, and the 'I don't know' segment is fair enough, but the lack of any sensible explanation for why there is death, pain, suffering and the like when the allegations of heaven suggest that it's not necessary just smacks of burying your head in the sand. Not only does no-one know why (fair enough) but no-one can suggest a sensible reason why it might be - that makes maintaining faith despite the existence of evil seem like wilful ignorance.

We all need God's loving help to pull through and ultimately attain salvation in our true home in heaven.

He alleged. With the best of intentions, but allegation nonetheless. I don't need the loving help of a God to pull through, I have my own capacities and those of my friends and my community; I don't hope to attain 'salvation', because I'm not lost, broken, or in need of rescue, and if my true home is heaven it can't be up to much, because I'd forgotten all about it by the time I was born.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, it's very much good stuff = God, bad stuff = people/don't know. At least Alan didn't trot out the 'creation is fallen' explanation.

[Nearly Sane]

The other problem is if god can create heaven why the need for the Borstal before you get in. And if the answer is free will, then how does that work in heaven?

[Alan Burns]

Seriously, how is a long succession of minor adjustments each selected for fitness at a given point in time leading to a limited intelligence somehow less probable than the self-induced spontaneous creation of a complete intelligence complete with infinite (?) power?

You are comparing two completely different things here.
The evolutionary process is based entirely on the possibilities of naturally occuring events on this universe.

A complete intelligence with infinite power (God) would be the creator of this universe and therefore outside the scope of our understanding.

What I was postulating was a comparison between intelligently guided evolution with an evolution process driven by random unguided events.

[Nearly Sane]

Seriously, how is a long succession of minor adjustments each selected for fitness at a given point in time leading to a limited intelligence somehow less probable than the self-induced spontaneous creation of a complete intelligence complete with infinite (?) power?

You are comparing two completely different things here.
The evolutionary process is based entirely on the possibilities of naturally occuring events on this universe.

A complete intelligence with infinite power (God) would be the creator of this universe and therefore outside the scope of our understanding.

What I was postulating was a comparison between intelligently guided evolution with an evolution process driven by random unguided events.

is that an intelligent designer, that when you are given indications of lack of intelligence in design, you just say that can't be understood? That would be having your cake, eating it, making up a new definition of  cake as chair and sitting on it as while eating previous cake

[Outrider]

You are comparing two completely different things here.
The evolutionary process is based entirely on the possibilities of naturally occuring events on this universe.

A complete intelligence with infinite power (God) would be the creator of this universe and therefore outside the scope of our understanding.

Not necessarily outside the scope of our understanding, possibly outside of our current understanding, yet still vastly more improbable than the demonstrated fact of evolution or the current best available theory we have to explain it.

What I was postulating was a comparison between intelligently guided evolution with an evolution process driven by random unguided events.

Nothing intrinsically rules out intelligently guided evolution, but nothing points towards it, either. There are a number of well-cited apparently unintelligent end-products in nature now, but the argument that made them available for evolution at the time it occurred are the same arguments that made them the best options for an intelligent 'tweak' at the time.

All I can offer in that regard is why do you need to posit an intelligent agency in evolution, when random mutation and natural selection - which we already can demonstrate happen - are sufficient to account for the diversity that we see?

O.

[Alan Burns]

So how do you square your belief in the intelligent design of the eye with the distressing and often fatal problems that women have had through millennia in giving birth?

If everything was designed to perfection, we would not need God, or even each other.  I believe the more we approach material perfection, the more self centred we would become, because we would no longer need the help of others or the help of God.

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.  I believe God can use our imperfections to help nurture the bonds of love which ultimately become the highlights of our life on this earth.

[Nearly Sane]

So how do you square your belief in the intelligent design of the eye with the distressing and often fatal problems that women have had through millennia in giving birth?

If everything was designed to perfection, we would not need God, or even each other.  I believe the more we approach material perfection, the more self centred we would become, because we do not need the help of others or the help of God.

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.  I believe God can use our imperfections to help nurture the bonds of love which ultimately become the highlights of our life on this earth.

So how will heaven work - will we have free will and imperfection?

[Rhiannon]

If that is the plan, Alan, then it would have been better to design women in such a way that children aren't likely to lose their mother in childbirth. It is only very recently in our history that women could expect to come through childbirth safely and it still carries significant risks, not just in the poorer nations but in the developed world also.

[Alan Burns]

So how do you square your belief in the intelligent design of the eye with the distressing and often fatal problems that women have had through millennia in giving birth?

If everything was designed to perfection, we would not need God, or even each other.  I believe the more we approach material perfection, the more self centred we would become, because we do not need the help of others or the help of God.

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.  I believe God can use our imperfections to help nurture the bonds of love which ultimately become the highlights of our life on this earth.

So how will heaven work - will we have free will and imperfection?

I believe our free will and imperfections will carry with us into heaven, but hopefully our earthly experience will allow us to fully appreciate God's love.

[Rhiannon]

Aren't we supposed to become 'like the angels'? In which case that means we will exist purely to praise God and/or do his bidding.

[Outrider]

If everything was designed to perfection, we would not need God, or even each other.  I believe the more we approach material perfection, the more self centred we would become, because we would no longer need the help of others or the help of God.

So your concept of love is based upon dependency?

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.

Why would it? I don't love my children because they need me, and once they're independent adults with their own lives I'll still love them, I expect, unless there is a radical character change.

I believe God can use our imperfections to help nurture the bonds of love which ultimately become the highlights of our life on this earth.

I suppose the good I can take out of this is that I don't believe because I'm that much closer to perfection

O.

[Alan Burns]

All I can offer in that regard is why do you need to posit an intelligent agency in evolution, when random mutation and natural selection - which we already can demonstrate happen - are sufficient to account for the diversity that we see?

The random mutation and natural selection processes observed during recent history show them to work as a fine tuning process on life forms which are already complex.  I would posit the question as to whether this process alone is capable of generating complex life forms from simple single cell organisms.  If God has control of apparently random quantum events, there is a mechanism for intelligent intervention in the process of evolution, which I believe would be essential to develop the complexity we see in present life forms.  There is no absolute way to prove this intervention exists, but the fact that humans can implement acts of intelligently guided free will indicates that our universe is not fully driven by deterministic events, and there is real evidence that manipulation and creative design can and does occur.

[Alan Burns]

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.

Why would it? I don't love my children because they need me, and once they're independent adults with their own lives I'll still love them, I expect, unless there is a radical character change.

Love is a two way thing.  My point was mainly aimed at the child's love for their parent.  I do not believe that a fully self sufficient child would return the parent's love for that child.  If God had made me materially perfect, I doubt if I would have discovered His love for me.  I believe we are all in need of God's love, whether we realise it or not.

[Outrider]

The random mutation and natural selection processes observed during recent history show them to work as a fine tuning process on life forms which are already complex.

There is an ongoing experiment demonstrating evolution of bacteria in a laboratory. Bacteria. Of course, every example of antibiotic resistance in history is down to evolution, as well, but we've not observed that happening directly, it is inferred.

I would posit the question as to whether this process alone is capable of generating complex life forms from simple single cell organisms.

Why? We have simple single-celled organisms in existence currently. We have symbiotic single-celled organisms, we have parasitic single-celled organisms, these are all the first steps along the chain towards complex organisms. We have organisms with barely half a dozen differentiated cell types, we have organisms with barely a dozen genes, and then we have the fabulous complexity of the banana genome.

If God has control of apparently random quantum events, there is a mechanism for intelligent intervention in the process of evolution, which I believe would be essential to develop the complexity we see in present life forms.

Mathematically, there is no need. Conceptually there is no need. I don't mean this to be belittling, I really don't, but the gap is in your imagination of the history, not in the history itself. As to 'apparently random' quantum events, they are not random: if they were random, we would not be able to assign accurate probabilities to them, and we can.

There is no absolute way to prove this intervention exists, but the fact that humans can implement acts of intelligently guided free will indicates that our universe is not fully driven by deterministic events, and there is real evidence that manipulation and creative design can and does occur.

If the idea of free will were indeed a fact, you might have more of a case, but even that's only a contention, and not one that's supported by the evidence. There is no evidence that 'manipulation and creative design' have ever occured. There is no way to prove or disprove intervention, but there is no need for it, and no reliable evidence of an intervener.

O.

[Outrider]

Love is a two way thing.  My point was mainly aimed at the child's love for their parent.  I do not believe that a fully self sufficient child would return the parent's love for that child.  If God had made me materially perfect, I doubt if I would have discovered His love for me.  I believe we are all in need of God's love, whether we realise it or not.

So, God made us imperfect to ensure that we'd love him? God put us into a world with a significant potential for pain, loss, struggle and trials for his own benefit?

You can believe I need God's love, but you've yet to show me what it is that I'm supposed to be lacking that this would alleviate?

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.

Why would it? I don't love my children because they need me, and once they're independent adults with their own lives I'll still love them, I expect, unless there is a radical character change.

Love is a two way thing.  My point was mainly aimed at the child's love for their parent.  I do not believe that a fully self sufficient child would return the parent's love for that child.  If God had made me materially perfect, I doubt if I would have discovered His love for me.  I believe we are all in need of God's love, whether we realise it or not.

Isn't God perfect? In which case you are arguing it cannot love?

[Alan Burns]

Just imagine if children were born to be completetly self sufficient and did not need any parental help.  The love between parent and child would be lost.

Why would it? I don't love my children because they need me, and once they're independent adults with their own lives I'll still love them, I expect, unless there is a radical character change.

Love is a two way thing.  My point was mainly aimed at the child's love for their parent.  I do not believe that a fully self sufficient child would return the parent's love for that child.  If God had made me materially perfect, I doubt if I would have discovered His love for me.  I believe we are all in need of God's love, whether we realise it or not.

Isn't God perfect? In which case you are arguing it cannot love?

I believe God's love for everyone exists and is constant, but is is mankind that has a problem in discovering this love, and returning it.  And the reason for this is the work of the evil one who endeavours to separate us from God's love.

[Alan Burns]

Love is a two way thing.  My point was mainly aimed at the child's love for their parent.  I do not believe that a fully self sufficient child would return the parent's love for that child.  If God had made me materially perfect, I doubt if I would have discovered His love for me.  I believe we are all in need of God's love, whether we realise it or not.

So, God made us imperfect to ensure that we'd love him? God put us into a world with a significant potential for pain, loss, struggle and trials for his own benefit?

You can believe I need God's love, but you've yet to show me what it is that I'm supposed to be lacking that this would alleviate?

It is the eternal salvation of the human soul.  In spiritual matters such as this, there is no scientific logic which can be used to verify it, just the revelation of God's word in the scriptures, and the historic accounts of the life of Jesus Christ and His disciples.

[Alan Burns]

I would posit the question as to whether this process alone is capable of generating complex life forms from simple single cell organisms.

Why? We have simple single-celled organisms in existence currently. We have symbiotic single-celled organisms, we have parasitic single-celled organisms, these are all the first steps along the chain towards complex organisms. We have organisms with barely half a dozen differentiated cell types, we have organisms with barely a dozen genes, and then we have the fabulous complexity of the banana genome.

Simply quoting these examples does not prove anything about how they may have been generated.

Darwin's discoveries merely show that complex life forms came into existence gradually over long periods of time.  The billions of beneficial mutations needed to generate these life forms might have occured by chance, or they might have been instigated by a creative intelligence beyond our understanding.  Hopefully one day every one of us will discover which of these scenarios is true.

[savillerow]

Msg 3872 AB "hopefully one day"  Which begs the questioned . . . . why do you believe?

[Nearly Sane]

I believe God's love for everyone exists and is constant, but is is mankind that has a problem in discovering this love, and returning it.  And the reason for this is the work of the evil one who endeavours to separate us from God's love.

Why did God create this imperfection?

[Alan Burns]

I believe God's love for everyone exists and is constant, but is is mankind that has a problem in discovering this love, and returning it.  And the reason for this is the work of the evil one who endeavours to separate us from God's love.

Why did God create this imperfection?

God may not be directly responsible for imperfections.
I think it all boils down to the existence of free will.
By allowing free will to exist in this universe, some things will inevitably occur which are not part of God's will.  The alternative would have been to make us all biological puppets with no will of our own, which would be pointless.