Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892492 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3725 on: September 16, 2015, 08:55:54 AM »
God may not be directly responsible for imperfections.
I think it all boils down to the existence of free will.
By allowing free will to exist in this universe, some things will inevitably occur which are not part of God's will.  The alternative would have been to make us all biological puppets with no will of our own, which would be pointless.
And yet there won't be sinning in heaven as already covered. If God is omniscient he knew the sufferining that would happen and created it anyway. BTW does free will cause bilharzia. How about a fawn burned in a forest fire caused by lightning  that suffers for days before dying? Why did your God allow that to happen? How about him hardening Pharoah's heart - that's denying free will - or was that just a lie in the OT? If there ws no suffering before us, how is the situation im[proved by creating suffering? Surely it would be better to have no suffering or does a child suffering from leukaemia only exist to cheer up your bored god?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3726 on: September 16, 2015, 09:06:50 AM »
God may not be directly responsible for imperfections.
I think it all boils down to the existence of free will.
By allowing free will to exist in this universe, some things will inevitably occur which are not part of God's will.  The alternative would have been to make us all biological puppets with no will of our own, which would be pointless.
And yet there won't be sinning in heaven as already covered. If God is omniscient he knew the sufferining that would happen and created it anyway. BTW does free will cause bilharzia. How about a fawn burned in a forest fire caused by lightning  that suffers for days before dying? Why did your God allow that to happen? How about him hardening Pharoah's heart - that's denying free will - or was that just a lie in the OT? If there ws no suffering before us, how is the situation im[proved by creating suffering? Surely it would be better to have no suffering or does a child suffering from leukaemia only exist to cheer up your bored god?
We can all use our limited intelligence to say how God should have done things, but none of us know the full truth.  I just know that God made Himself known to me through Jesus, who suffered and died to save us all from sin and death.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3727 on: September 16, 2015, 09:07:38 AM »
I just know that God made Himself known to me through Jesus, who suffered and died to save us all from sin and death.
No you don't.

You believe this to be the case.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3728 on: September 16, 2015, 09:58:34 AM »
And yet there won't be sinning in heaven as already covered. If God is omniscient he knew the sufferining that would happen and created it anyway. BTW does free will cause bilharzia. How about a fawn burned in a forest fire caused by lightning  that suffers for days before dying? Why did your God allow that to happen? How about him hardening Pharoah's heart - that's denying free will - or was that just a lie in the OT? If there ws no suffering before us, how is the situation im[proved by creating suffering? Surely it would be better to have no suffering or does a child suffering from leukaemia only exist to cheer up your bored god?
We can all use our limited intelligence to say how God should have done things, but none of us know the full truth.  I just know that God made Himself known to me through Jesus, who suffered and died to save us all from sin and death.

But it doesn't really matter - the point is that your position means this is the best of all possible world's and leads to logical issues. Effectively any knowledge in that case is worthless as you have already accepted that you have no way of processing it. These aren't questions about making it better, these are pointing out contradictions in YOUR statements.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3729 on: September 16, 2015, 10:41:27 AM »

Quote
I would posit the question as to whether this process alone is capable of generating complex life forms from simple single cell organisms.

Why? We have simple single-celled organisms in existence currently. We have symbiotic single-celled organisms, we have parasitic single-celled organisms, these are all the first steps along the chain towards complex organisms. We have organisms with barely half a dozen differentiated cell types, we have organisms with barely a dozen genes, and then we have the fabulous complexity of the banana genome.

Simply quoting these examples does not prove anything about how they may have been generated.

Darwin's discoveries merely show that complex life forms came into existence gradually over long periods of time.  The billions of beneficial mutations needed to generate these life forms might have occured by chance, or they might have been instigated by a creative intelligence beyond our understanding.  Hopefully one day every one of us will discover which of these scenarios is true.

My point wasn't about where they came from, my point was that we see evolution happening all the time, all over the world, in a multitude of organisms of varying complexity. It's not necessary to already have relatively complex organisms for evolutionary changes to occur.

Darwin's discovery didn't merely show that evolutionary change happens over extended periods of time, it also showed the possibility of a nested, hierarchic 'tree of life' trailing back to common ancestry - later developments in genetics have reinforced this understanding.

Indeed, they may have been random natural events, or they may have been supernaturally instigated, but in the absence of any evidence for a supernatural intervention and in the absence of any need for a supernatural intervention to explain the system, why posit a supernatural intervention?

It's entirely possible that we only fall because a god wills it, but we don't have 'intelligent gravity'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3730 on: September 16, 2015, 12:12:03 PM »

My point wasn't about where they came from, my point was that we see evolution happening all the time, all over the world, in a multitude of organisms of varying complexity. It's not necessary to already have relatively complex organisms for evolutionary changes to occur.

Darwin's discovery didn't merely show that evolutionary change happens over extended periods of time, it also showed the possibility of a nested, hierarchic 'tree of life' trailing back to common ancestry - later developments in genetics have reinforced this understanding.

Indeed, they may have been random natural events, or they may have been supernaturally instigated, but in the absence of any evidence for a supernatural intervention and in the absence of any need for a supernatural intervention to explain the system, why posit a supernatural intervention?

It's entirely possible that we only fall because a god wills it, but we don't have 'intelligent gravity'.

O.
Gravity alone does not bring about the specific complexity we see in life.  There is no feasible way to show the precise causes of historical beneficial mutations.  You may assume that every one of them was generated by the random events of the deterministic activity of our universe, but there is no certainty in this.  However if we acknowledge that acts of intelligent human free will can occur in this universe, it is possible that another source of intelligent free will could have generated some of the beneficial mutations needed to bring into existence the immense complexity we perceive in life.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3731 on: September 16, 2015, 12:14:06 PM »
Gravity alone does not bring about the specific complexity we see in life.  There is no feasible way to show the precise causes of historical beneficial mutations.  You may assume that every one of them was generated by the random events of the deterministic activity of our universe, but there is no certainty in this.  However if we acknowledge that acts of intelligent human free will can occur in this universe, it is possible that another source of intelligent free will could have generated some of the beneficial mutations needed to bring into existence the immense complexity we perceive in life.
And therefore caused the various design problems and where people suffer because of that - the suffering is intended by your being
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:16:01 PM by Nearly Sane »

Andy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3732 on: September 16, 2015, 12:17:05 PM »

My point wasn't about where they came from, my point was that we see evolution happening all the time, all over the world, in a multitude of organisms of varying complexity. It's not necessary to already have relatively complex organisms for evolutionary changes to occur.

Darwin's discovery didn't merely show that evolutionary change happens over extended periods of time, it also showed the possibility of a nested, hierarchic 'tree of life' trailing back to common ancestry - later developments in genetics have reinforced this understanding.

Indeed, they may have been random natural events, or they may have been supernaturally instigated, but in the absence of any evidence for a supernatural intervention and in the absence of any need for a supernatural intervention to explain the system, why posit a supernatural intervention?

It's entirely possible that we only fall because a god wills it, but we don't have 'intelligent gravity'.

O.
Gravity alone does not bring about the specific complexity we see in life.  There is no feasible way to show the precise causes of historical beneficial mutations.  You may assume that every one of them was generated by the random events of the deterministic activity of our universe, but there is no certainty in this.  However if we acknowledge that acts of intelligent human free will can occur in this universe, it is possible that another source of intelligent free will could have generated some of the beneficial mutations needed to bring into existence the immense complexity we perceive in life.

But don't you believe god created everything, including things you'd consider to be the simplest of things? As with anyone trying ID through the complexity argument, you conveniently push that to one side to engage in this doublethink.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3733 on: September 16, 2015, 12:21:10 PM »

But it doesn't really matter - the point is that your position means this is the best of all possible world's and leads to logical issues. Effectively any knowledge in that case is worthless as you have already accepted that you have no way of processing it. These aren't questions about making it better, these are pointing out contradictions in YOUR statements.
I have read your post several times but do not fully understand what you are saying.  I do not believe that I have contradicted myself in any way.  I have pointed to the logical evidence for God, and I have shown God's message as given to us through Jesus Christ.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3734 on: September 16, 2015, 12:22:05 PM »
Gravity alone does not bring about the specific complexity we see in life.

We don't see 'specific' complexity, we see complexity after the fact.

Quote
There is no feasible way to show the precise causes of historical beneficial mutations.

True.

Quote
You may assume that every one of them was generated by the random events of the deterministic activity of our universe, but there is no certainty in this.

I could deduce that from the available evidence, as well.

Quote
However if we acknowledge that acts of intelligent human free will can occur in this universe, it is possible that another source of intelligent free will could have generated some of the beneficial mutations needed to bring into existence the immense complexity we perceive in life.

Except that there is no evidence for free will, the entire concept is nonsensical, and even if it weren't it would in and of itself serve as any evidence for an extra-universal, self-induced instantaneous complexity having arisen to be available to induce minor changes in natural events to result in a free-will capable humanity any more than having an eye does.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3735 on: September 16, 2015, 12:22:45 PM »

But it doesn't really matter - the point is that your position means this is the best of all possible world's and leads to logical issues. Effectively any knowledge in that case is worthless as you have already accepted that you have no way of processing it. These aren't questions about making it better, these are pointing out contradictions in YOUR statements.
I have read your post several times but do not fully understand what you are saying.  I do not believe that I have contradicted myself in any way.  I have pointed to the logical evidence for God, and I have shown God's message as given to us through Jesus Christ.

If you cannot judge anything as bad because of your limits, you cannot judge something to be good.

savillerow

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3736 on: September 16, 2015, 12:45:37 PM »
Msg 3886 AB "I have pointed to the logical evidence for god" Just so im clear can you give me two or three obvious evidence thingies that I can see and test and then say to myself "Oh yeah silly me"
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3737 on: September 16, 2015, 01:12:14 PM »
Msg 3886 AB "I have pointed to the logical evidence for god" Just so im clear can you give me two or three obvious evidence thingies that I can see and test and then say to myself "Oh yeah silly me

It is very hard to be optimistic about a rational reply,isn't it?! After reading some of of AB's posts here, I can't face reading any more and skip over them, just reading the responses. :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3738 on: September 16, 2015, 01:21:17 PM »
Msg 3886 AB "I have pointed to the logical evidence for god" Just so im clear can you give me two or three obvious evidence thingies that I can see and test and then say to myself "Oh yeah silly me

It is very hard to be optimistic about a rational reply,isn't it?! After reading some of of AB's posts here, I can't face reading any more and skip over them, just reading the responses. :)

All of his responses so far have been 'rational' - they've been polite, they've addressed comments and attempted to move the conversation forward, and they've been respectful of people's positions.

If we aren't going to bother listening to opinions because we pre-judge that we're not going to like the content what's the point in being on a discussion forum?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3739 on: September 16, 2015, 01:25:06 PM »
All of his responses so far have been 'rational' - they've been polite, they've addressed comments and attempted to move the conversation forward, and they've been respectful of people's positions.
Alas, none of those things equate to being rational.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3740 on: September 16, 2015, 01:26:11 PM »

Except that there is no evidence for free will, the entire concept is nonsensical
It is only nonsensical when you try to analyse it from a materialistic point of view.  My free will is self evident from my most basic concept of reality.  My self awareness (which can't be defined in material terms) is what drives my free will.  If free will did not exist, there would be no need for self awareness - we could just exist as the survival machines produced from the natural selection process.  Self awareness and free will are inextricably linked and they are the most compelling evidence we have for the existence of the human soul.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3741 on: September 16, 2015, 01:29:16 PM »
All of his responses so far have been 'rational' - they've been polite, they've addressed comments and attempted to move the conversation forward, and they've been respectful of people's positions.
Alas, none of those things equate to being rational.

No, those were additional qualities. His responses have been rational - from his position, with his presumptions and assumptions, they are rational, they are openly reasoned from his precepts which are openly declared.

I say that in contrast to the likes of Sassy or Johnny Canoe who simply make assertions without any resort to an attempt to reason, or Vlad who doesn't make a case of his own and simply snipes from the sidelines.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3742 on: September 16, 2015, 01:51:14 PM »

We are ALL animals, the only difference being humans are more evolved than the others. Given time we might find other species, like the apes for instance, will have our thinking skills too.  I don't know why you are so desperate to attribute everything to do with humans to your creation of a deity?

Evidence please....

Waiting.....

Still waiting.....

Oh evidence is proof we are waiting for that evidence from you for the above....

The evidence, Sassy, is evolution itself. But it is completely beyond your understanding.

Evolution is MANMADE not evidence and certainly no scientist worth his salt would support you as it being evidence and us being animals.
Did you forget man made the name and decided what to call them.
We are not all animals and there is a world of difference. IGNORANCE is no excuse not even for you Leonard...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3743 on: September 16, 2015, 02:01:18 PM »

We are ALL animals, the only difference being humans are more evolved than the others. Given time we might find other species, like the apes for instance, will have our thinking skills too.  I don't know why you are so desperate to attribute everything to do with humans to your creation of a deity?

Evidence please....

Waiting.....

Still waiting.....

Oh evidence is proof we are waiting for that evidence from you for the above....

The evidence, Sassy, is evolution itself. But it is completely beyond your understanding.

Evolution is MANMADE not evidence and certainly no scientist worth his salt would support you as it being evidence and us being animals.
Did you forget man made the name and decided what to call them.
We are not all animals and there is a world of difference. IGNORANCE is no excuse not even for you Leonard...

Evolution is not man-made, Sass, evolution simply is - we see it in nature like we see marsupials and photosynthesis and predation. I am a scientist, by qualification and profession, and along with the overwhelming majority of scientists in the world I accept the reality of evolution and the evidence supporting the neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution as the best explanation available for that phenomenon. We are animals, descended from the same common ancestry as every other life form that we currently know.

The one point I do have with the Leonard's statement is this: we are not 'more' or 'more highly' evolved than other creatures, we are simply well evolved for the ecological niche we have adopted. Other creatures are as 'highly' developed for their own roles as we are.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3744 on: September 16, 2015, 02:03:42 PM »

Except that there is no evidence for free will, the entire concept is nonsensical
It is only nonsensical when you try to analyse it from a materialistic point of view.  My free will is self evident from my most basic concept of reality.  My self awareness (which can't be defined in material terms) is what drives my free will.  If free will did not exist, there would be no need for self awareness - we could just exist as the survival machines produced from the natural selection process.  Self awareness and free will are inextricably linked and they are the most compelling evidence we have for the existence of the human soul.

The fact that we can't currently define consciousness or self-awareness according to material causes doesn't mean that it isn't dependent upon physical causes - before we understood the wave-theory of radiation there was still light.

Regardless of that, regardless of where you think free will resides it is nonsensical.

If free will is the result of a determination made on previous information then it is not free. In order to be free of those prior conditions it would have have a random component, at which point it might become free but how would it be considered 'will'?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3745 on: September 16, 2015, 02:07:56 PM »

We are ALL animals, the only difference being humans are more evolved than the others. Given time we might find other species, like the apes for instance, will have our thinking skills too.  I don't know why you are so desperate to attribute everything to do with humans to your creation of a deity?

Evidence please....

Waiting.....

Still waiting.....

Oh evidence is proof we are waiting for that evidence from you for the above....

The evidence, Sassy, is evolution itself. But it is completely beyond your understanding.

Evolution is MANMADE not evidence and certainly no scientist worth his salt would support you as it being evidence and us being animals.
Did you forget man made the name and decided what to call them.
We are not all animals and there is a world of difference. IGNORANCE is no excuse not even for you Leonard...

Only one person demonstrating ignorance here I'm afraid. Humans are animals, as every scientist 'worth his salt' knows, evolution is a natural process observed (and named) by humans but is not manmade.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 02:16:32 PM by Maeght »

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3746 on: September 16, 2015, 03:33:36 PM »

We are ALL animals, the only difference being humans are more evolved than the others. Given time we might find other species, like the apes for instance, will have our thinking skills too.  I don't know why you are so desperate to attribute everything to do with humans to your creation of a deity?

Evidence please....

Waiting.....

Still waiting.....

Oh evidence is proof we are waiting for that evidence from you for the above....

The evidence, Sassy, is evolution itself. But it is completely beyond your understanding.

Evolution is MANMADE not evidence and certainly no scientist worth his salt would support you as it being evidence and us being animals.
Did you forget man made the name and decided what to call them.
We are not all animals and there is a world of difference. IGNORANCE is no excuse not even for you Leonard...

Sass at her nuttiest! ;D ;D ;D

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3747 on: September 16, 2015, 04:06:33 PM »
Excellent post,  Torri.  :)
You too, enki.

I tend towards the viewpoint that there is no ghost within the machine, and that what we call free will is probably the result of the complexity of our brains. There is plenty of evidence that many people whose brains have been damaged respond quite differently to stimuli in contrast to how they did before the damage took place. Perhaps it's partly a case of the brain acting upon the information it absorbs to make its decisions. It may be true that quantum indeterminacy plays a part in this, but, if so, this still would not be a case for free will.

With the above in mind, I think I understand where Torridon is coming from. And I think he expressed it beautifully, so I think I would disagree with you about being more critical, unless, of course, you can bring powerful evidence to the table that free will actually exists..in which case, I might well change my mind.   ;) :D
I would agree that it is possible that we have the illusion of free will. However, until someone demonstrates we don't, I'll carry on assuming we do have it. Why? Because it seems to be correct and I see no good reason to think otherwise. There could well be mileage in what you say about brain damage, but I'm not yet (totally) convinced. That is partly due to not being able to define free will totally to my own satisfaction. Does free will mean making decisions without being forced into them by an external agency? If so, then even a person with brain damage can do that, but is such a definition useful in determining whether someone is responsible for good and evil moral decisions (assuming we ever came to an agreement on these boards as to whether there is such a thing as a morality which is meaningful (rather than just "what I like" or "what is best, in my subjective view, for my own particular species").

There is also the problem for those holding the view that free will does not exist in that they can never have a good reason for believing free will does not exist. Note I am not saying that free will cannot not exist, but rather that there cannot be a good reason for believing it. If free will does not exist then those who believe it does not exist can't help but believe it does not exist and those who do believe it exists can't help but believe it exists.

And stuff.


Hi Alan,

I agree that for all intents and purposes we act as though we have (limited) free will. However I think that there is a case to be made that normal(classical) physics is time reversal symmetric. In other words, physics can, in theory at least, describe all events in the forwards time direction as easily as the back time direction. If the workings of our brains follow the laws of classical physics in this regard then what we call free will could well be deterministic, but it could be that the huge complexity of our thinking, factoring in the experiences and data from our nature and nurture,(and including the ability for forward thinking) might well disguise any deterministic pattern.

As regards the problems of personal responsibility it is interesting that we often accept that there are circumstances which, at the very least, have a part to play in the actions we take. In other words we constantly look for causes which influence our actions. It is not accepted(generally) that this absolves us of this sense of responsibility, of course, but it can be used to modify the degree of responsibility that we infer.

One of the major problems which has yet to be overcome is how the brain works both in its highest conscious state of awareness right through to the subconscious. Recent research seems to show that, in certain circumstances, the subconscious can make decisions before the conscious brain becomes aware.

There is plenty of evidence that a wide range of animal species also seem to exhibit free will behaviour. Indeed this could well extend to fruit flies, who, under controlled conditions, appear to exhibit characteristics which suggests that that they can 'think before they act' rather than simply acting instinctively.

Your final paragraph is interesting, and it is somewhat similar to C. S. Lewis's idea propounded in his book, 'Miracles', where he alludes to J. B. S. Haldane's statement "If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true…and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." Like many critics I see no problem with these ideas because I have no reason to think that such qualities as logic, rationality, justification etc. are dependent on free will/determinism  at all. Similarly, if evidence were to allow a comprehensive justification that there is no such thing as free will, then whatever I thought would have no effect on that justification.

Which brings me right back to what Torri said, especially this:

Quote
. But for most practical purposes I can go about life enjoying the blueness of the sky and the comfort of my armchair; when I am introduced to someone I don't bother introducing also the billions of cohabiting microbes that form the bulk of me. Likewise i can go around making choices happily without consideration for whether my choices are truly free or are they ultimately largely predetermined.  So long as it feels free then I am happy with that.

Just a few musings.... :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3748 on: September 16, 2015, 04:17:39 PM »
I'm puzzled by Christians like Alan B., as they don't seem to talk about intelligent gravity.  But why not, if you are talking about mutations being caused by God, as otherwise too complex to explain naturalistically.   So is that saying that gravity is not complex, and is not caused by God?   Or gravity is complex, and is still not caused by God?

They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3749 on: September 16, 2015, 04:36:59 PM »

If free will is the result of a determination made on previous information then it is not free. In order to be free of those prior conditions it would have have a random component, at which point it might become free but how would it be considered 'will'?

My concept of free will is that it is neither deterministic nor random.

By definition, a free will event has to be invoked by a source which is outside the 'cause and effect' chain of events, otherwise it would not be free will.

Also, it is certainly not random, otherwise formula 1 racing drivers would soon deminish after deciding when to overtake.

To fit in with my most basic concept of reality, free will must be invoked by the awareness of the human soul.  Somewhere in our brain there is an interface between our spiritual self and our physical body in order for self awareness to interact with the physical world.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton