Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

... and that's another example of how to do it 

No. it's mere handwaving.

[Alan Burns]

Love is good , of course, it is one of lifes most rewarding experiences without a doubt but reason tells the more realistic and evidential explaination is the genetics and evlutionary route and of course the goddy goddy bit has had it's part within our social history and it certainly seems to have out lived is place.

The gradual decline of the religions here, is showing the signs allready in the more developed countrys where higher educational standards are leading the way,  I'm sure the religions will manage to hang on for some time but gradually and largley fizzling out in the end.

There'll always be a few hangers on, like your good self Alan, so the future generations will at least know something about how the religions were in the old days and have some idea of what it was like; something like the way we now view the aincent Greek and Roman gods.

Really thinking all things are delivered to us via this god thing of yours Alan, really only amounts to a bit of a flowery romancing idea, but there you are Alan, if it floats your boat.

ippy

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

[ippy]

Chopperman,
You're another godless atheist with that arrogant and bigoted, the people in the developing world are stupid and unschooled. Once we get a hold of them, they will want to dump God.
Well Europe's influence is in decline, so have fun trying to get a hold of all those uneducated people around the world.

Hi Woody, well yes I'm a supremely blameless and righteous superb example of the atheist line of thought, but in my usual modest way I wouldn't want to make to much of that.

Atheists as you call us don't need to get a hold of unschooled people as education plus the internet spread their welcome influence throughout the world; just as the evidence we already have is showing, it is becoming a less religious and a more secular world, without any special effort on the part of the atheists, only common sense.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

Love is good , of course, it is one of lifes most rewarding experiences without a doubt but reason tells the more realistic and evidential explaination is the genetics and evlutionary route and of course the goddy goddy bit has had it's part within our social history and it certainly seems to have out lived is place.

The gradual decline of the religions here, is showing the signs allready in the more developed countrys where higher educational standards are leading the way,  I'm sure the religions will manage to hang on for some time but gradually and largley fizzling out in the end.

There'll always be a few hangers on, like your good self Alan, so the future generations will at least know something about how the religions were in the old days and have some idea of what it was like; something like the way we now view the aincent Greek and Roman gods.

Really thinking all things are delivered to us via this god thing of yours Alan, really only amounts to a bit of a flowery romancing idea, but there you are Alan, if it floats your boat.

ippy

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

[Rhiannon]

Is the love of Christians superior to the love of others then?

Oh definitely. They've cornered the market in it, you know. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son Robert Powell and all that.

It is agape love not Eros Love. Look up the difference.

You believe and do everything from what you personally want to believe.
But agape love is very different as it is a selfless love not a selfish love as Eros.

Um, no, Sass. Alan said it was the love of his fellow Christians that convinced him that God is real. Both Shaker and myself were able to work out that he doesn't mean that he and his chums have church-sanctioned orgies.

But ok, let's run with that thought. Are non- Christians incapable of agape? Or is ours inferior?

[ippy]

Love is good , of course, it is one of lifes most rewarding experiences without a doubt but reason tells the more realistic and evidential explaination is the genetics and evlutionary route and of course the goddy goddy bit has had it's part within our social history and it certainly seems to have out lived is place.

The gradual decline of the religions here, is showing the signs allready in the more developed countrys where higher educational standards are leading the way,  I'm sure the religions will manage to hang on for some time but gradually and largley fizzling out in the end.

There'll always be a few hangers on, like your good self Alan, so the future generations will at least know something about how the religions were in the old days and have some idea of what it was like; something like the way we now view the aincent Greek and Roman gods.

Really thinking all things are delivered to us via this god thing of yours Alan, really only amounts to a bit of a flowery romancing idea, but there you are Alan, if it floats your boat.

ippy

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

Seconded, why?

ippy

[floo]

Love is good , of course, it is one of lifes most rewarding experiences without a doubt but reason tells the more realistic and evidential explaination is the genetics and evlutionary route and of course the goddy goddy bit has had it's part within our social history and it certainly seems to have out lived is place.

The gradual decline of the religions here, is showing the signs allready in the more developed countrys where higher educational standards are leading the way,  I'm sure the religions will manage to hang on for some time but gradually and largley fizzling out in the end.

There'll always be a few hangers on, like your good self Alan, so the future generations will at least know something about how the religions were in the old days and have some idea of what it was like; something like the way we now view the aincent Greek and Roman gods.

Really thinking all things are delivered to us via this god thing of yours Alan, really only amounts to a bit of a flowery romancing idea, but there you are Alan, if it floats your boat.

ippy

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

The sort of Christian 'values' on which the western society was built weren't always good, in fact the opposite was true. I doubt if religion went down the toilet it would be a bad thing and we might be a lot better off!

[Shaker]

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.

Some of them were, and very far from all to the good. Then there are the values which were not so much adopted as absorbed from umpteen other sources.

Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Hysterical bullshit. This is no more than the old "You can't be good without God (and my brand of my interpretation of God especially)" in a cheap suit.

Dislike it all you like Alan - and you will, you will - but people were good and doing good long before your ancient Middle Eastern handyman appeared on the scene (it is alleged) and they'll be the same long after your religion has gone the way of Poseidon and Hera.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Chopper,
Actually faith continues to grow globally and your atheism is in decline and has been for some time. There are no signs of that trend reversing. The internet is a great help but not for atheism obviously.

http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol32/27/32-27.pdf

[jeremyp]

Chopper,
Actually faith continues to grow globally and your atheism is in decline and has been for some time. There are no signs of that trend reversing. The internet is a great help but not for atheism obviously.

http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol32/27/32-27.pdf

I don't think you've read your link properly (again).

[Alan Burns]

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

Just wait and see.
I do not want to be proved right, but I fear I will

[Shaker]

How long do we have to wait, Alan?

It's not another one of your lot's two thousand years and counting jobs, is it?

[Rhiannon]

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

Just wait and see.
I do not want to be proved right, but I fear I will

That's not an explanation, that's unsubstantiated assertion. Surely if things are that bad you need to have something better to persuade people with. Care to give it another go?

[Shaker]

That's not an explanation, that's unsubstantiated assertion.

Even that's being generous - it's barely even that; it's just a lot of "I'll be proven right so far in the future that nobody will be around to tell me I'm wrong."

Surely if things are that bad you need to have something better to persuade people with. Care to give it another go?

I await a response with great interest.

[ippy]

Chopper,
Actually faith continues to grow globally and your atheism is in decline and has been for some time. There are no signs of that trend reversing. The internet is a great help but not for atheism obviously.

http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol32/27/32-27.pdf

It's the educational aspect of the internet, eduction the opposite of ignorance will see it off eventually and of course obviously there will always be a few hangers on, mind you there's not that many followers of Zeus about these days.

Generally in educated societies religion as a belief isn't taken that seriously anywhere as much as it used to be, your neighbours are either getting less religious or the atheists are comming out more than they used to; a bit of each perhaps?

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Blue, once eminent and respected scientists start talking about simulated universes the game is more or less up for the necessity of a universe which a)is eternal b)comes about through unconscious ''nature''.

First, no it isn't. The Greene/Tedburg hypothesis has nothing to say about either. Just making shit up about science and trying to co-opt it into your personal superstitions does you no credit.

Second, again Greene/Tedburg have a hypothesis only.

Third, I'm not aware that either of them has anything to say about your god. If you think they have, then cite it; if not, stop abusing their work.

Fourth, you've offered no logical path of any kind from a hypothesis about a multiverse to your god. If you think there to be one nonetheless, why not share?

Fifth, inasmuch as any two christians agree on anything as I understand it part of the schtick is that you believe in a god of everything. How then would multiple universes help you with that?

Philosophical materialism is the ultimate circular argument gambit, it's followers state it is true because only material things can be and only material things can be because philosophical materialism is.

No its "followers" don't, and why have you substituted your previous "philosophical naturalism" for "philosophical materialism"? Have you realised that your straw man version of the former has been sussed, so you've tried to shift ground to something you feel more sure of or something?

All "philosophical naturalists" do say by the way is that naturalistic phenomena are the only ones that can be identified and verified using a method that distinguishes them from just guessing about (non-)stuff. If though you really think them to be wrong about that, then why not finally tell us what method you'd propose to do the same job in respect of your and other people's various claims of the supernatural?

You constantly confuse the methodology with the philosophy.

I do no such thing, as I've explained here many times. What you do though is constantly to set up your own straw man version of what philosophical naturalism actually entails, and then you attack that. 

And that's why your schtick re philosophical/methodological naturalism falls on its face every time you attempt it.

Lastly you frequently argue that a subjective morality is intuited and you think that's OK as an argument.

Yes, because I also argue that moral positions are not objectively true - they're fluid, axiomatic, subject to changes in the Zeitgeist etc. You or I can intuit "them" as much as we like, but what you can't intuit is your own facts. 

Way to shoot yourself in the foot there Vladdy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

No. it's mere handwaving:Vladdish phrase, contemporary - stock expression used when the proponent has had his arse handed to him in a sling and he has no response. See also diversionary tactic.

Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, p 297. Simon & Schuster, 2nd Ed. 1993

[Shaker]

Niiiiiiice 

[Alan Burns]

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

Just wait and see.
I do not want to be proved right, but I fear I will

That's not an explanation, that's unsubstantiated assertion. Surely if things are that bad you need to have something better to persuade people with. Care to give it another go?

Matthew 13:58:

And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

It is faith that opens up the channel of God's help.  If this this channel closes down due to our increasing secular society, God will not be able to help, and we will suffer the consequences.  I think history has shown what these consequences can be in those areas of civilisation which have tried to do without God.

[Shaker]

Matthew 13:58:

And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

A very telling passage, Alan

It is faith that opens up the channel of God's help.

... as is that, for the same reason. 

If this this channel closes down due to our increasing secular society, God will not be able to help

"Will not be able to"? You don't see your God as omnipotent, then, I take it.
 

and we will suffer the consequences.

Which are?

I think history has shown what these consequences can be in those areas of civilisation which have tried to do without God.

The only places I can think of in this regard are those parts of the world with the lowest levels of religious adherence - the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, the Scandiwegian countries, etc.

Not only are they doing OK, they're the envy of the world in many, perhaps even most of the metrics of societal health.

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a descrition for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

Still, one can either complain or find an enlightened shithole instead.

[jeremyp]

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a descrition for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

If you think that, why not fuck off?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a description for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

If you think that, why not fuck off?

Thus speaks the voice of antitheism today.....why don't you?

[jeremyp]

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a description for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

If you think that, why not fuck off?

Thus speaks the voice of antitheism today.....why don't you?

Because I don't think this forum is a benighted shit hole.  I would fuck off if I did.  That's why I asked you why you don't.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a descrition for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

Still, one can either complain or find an enlightened shithole instead.

Charming. You do this a lot I've noticed - when you've had your arse handed to you in a sling (again) you just abuse the person who did it in the hope that no-one notices.

Trouble is, they do.