Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a descrition for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

Still, one can either complain or find an enlightened shithole instead.

Perhaps one of the attributes of that would be somewhere where posters did not lie about what other poster's views,  as you do frequently and did with your idiocy about bhs wanting to stop people posting. Why is it that you lie so much on here?

[Rhiannon]

Am I imagining things or has Alan given us stories of people without faith having miraculous conversion experiences?

[ippy]

Our Western civilisation was built on a foundation of Christian values.  Remove those values and collapse will be inevitable.

Why?

Just wait and see.
I do not want to be proved right, but I fear I will

That's not an explanation, that's unsubstantiated assertion. Surely if things are that bad you need to have something better to persuade people with. Care to give it another go?

Matthew 13:58:

And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

It is faith that opens up the channel of God's help.  If this this channel closes down due to our increasing secular society, God will not be able to help, and we will suffer the consequences.  I think history has shown what these consequences can be in those areas of civilisation which have tried to do without God.

I was going to respond to this post of yours but I see Shakes has beaten me to it, Shakes has said it all there's no need for me to add to that.

ippy 

[Andy]

It is faith that opens up the channel of God's help.

Let's be thankful that the emergency services don't work on such a premise.

[Rhiannon]

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Benighted shithole?....yes, thanks...I was reaching for a descrition for this forum subsequent to the return of Bluehillside and your good self.

Still, one can either complain or find an enlightened shithole instead.

That's unnecessarily rude.

[Alan Burns]

The only places I can think of in this regard are those parts of the world with the lowest levels of religious adherence - the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, the Scandiwegian countries, etc.

Not only are they doing OK, they're the envy of the world in many, perhaps even most of the metrics of societal health.

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Like North Korea?

[ippy]

The only places I can think of in this regard are those parts of the world with the lowest levels of religious adherence - the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, the Scandiwegian countries, etc.

Not only are they doing OK, they're the envy of the world in many, perhaps even most of the metrics of societal health.

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Like North Korea?

Good to see a post coming from you that makes you sound like a normal person, please don't tell me it's a one off Alan.

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Alan,

Like North Korea?

No, not like North Korea. That’s not a country that’s just tried to “do without god” is it? It’s actually a country that’s governed by a savage dictatorship. If you want a fair comparison, you’ll need to find a secular country that’s not also been wrecked by a dogma of a different sort.

Try the Scandinavian countries for example.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Alan,

Like North Korea?

No, not like North Korea. That’s not a country that’s just tried to “do without god” is it?

Yes Alan, what do you think you are doing picking an atheist country which doesn't fit Hillside's argument......get back ''on message'' for goodness sake.

[Shaker]

Like North Korea?

No. I was in fact thinking of countries where religious faith is strong and widespread and yet, for some reason, illiteracy is high, infant mortality is through the roof and life expectancy is in the toilet, desperate poverty and treatable diseases are rife, the gap between rich and poor is wider than Nina Hartley's knees - Latin American nations, sub-Saharan African countries, and so forth.

As is always the case, we have to be on our guard against confusing correlation with causation, which has been the ruination of many a hopeful argument; yet equally, in the words of H. D. Thoreau, some evidence is strongly suggestive, like a trout in the milk.

Why might that be, Alan?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes Alan, what do you think you are doing picking an atheist country which doesn't fit Hillside's argument......get back ''on message'' for goodness sake.

It's nothing to do with my "argument" and everything to do with getting the facts wrong.

[ippy]

The only places I can think of in this regard are those parts of the world with the lowest levels of religious adherence - the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, the Scandiwegian countries, etc.

Not only are they doing OK, they're the envy of the world in many, perhaps even most of the metrics of societal health.

There are any number of benighted shitholes around the planet who would love their 'consequences.'

Like North Korea?

Other than North Korea, the rest of the countrys are free to chose, so North  Korea isn't exactly compareable, that's not really, to be fair, a very good try on your part.

I suppose all you can offer are assertions; bit limiting don't you think?

Ippy

[Rhiannon]

The thing with NK is its weird cult around its leader. It's a kind of pseudo-theocratic dictatorship. I can't think of anywhere that operates in the same way.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ippy,

Other than North Korea, the rest of the countrys are free to chose, so North  Korea isn't exactly compareable, that's not really, to be fair, a very good try on your part.

I suppose all you can offer are assertions; bit limiting don't you think?

It’s an old mistake – find the most brutal regime you can that also happens to be atheistic in character and then blame the brutality on the atheism. It’s often done re Stalin, Mao etc but it’s as muddle-headed as would be me claiming the Hitler was a genocidal monster because of his catholicism. It’s just the old corroboration = causality fallacy.

Atheism of course is just the absence of belief in gods. There’s no logical path from that to any political doctrine, let alone to fascistic ones. At most by and large the secular countries that are also liberal democracies tend to have the better indicators of social wellbeing, whereas those that are more religious tend to do worse – for reasons fairly obviously connected with overpopulation etc. 

[Alan Burns]

The only places I can think of in this regard are those parts of the world with the lowest levels of religious adherence - the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, the Scandiwegian countries, etc.

I think you may be mistaken about the Czech Republic.  In December 2014 Prague hosted the Taize european meeting which attracted 23,000 Christian participants who were mostly accomodated by families in the city.  See link.
http://www.taize.fr/en_article17435.html

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I think you may be mistaken about the Czech Republic.

Then you think wrongly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Czech_Republic

[Alan Burns]

Am I imagining things or has Alan given us stories of people without faith having miraculous conversion experiences?

The conversion experiences I recall were brought about through the faith of other people who were praying for the person involved.

[Leonard James]

Am I imagining things or has Alan given us stories of people without faith having miraculous conversion experiences?

The conversion experiences I recall were brought about through the faith of other people who were praying for the person involved.

But what makes you think the praying had anything to do with it? People convert when they are convinced a religious story is true.

[Alan Burns]

Am I imagining things or has Alan given us stories of people without faith having miraculous conversion experiences?

The conversion experiences I recall were brought about through the faith of other people who were praying for the person involved.

But what makes you think the praying had anything to do with it? People convert when they are convinced a religious story is true.

In some cases, just the knowledge that someone is praying for your conversion can ignite a spark of curiosity which may lead to faith.  And God can help this process along through the power of prayer.  I continue to pray for your return to faith, Len.

[Leonard James]

  I continue to pray for your return to faith, Len.

And I continue to hope that the veil will fall from your eyes and bring the light of truth to you! 

[Shaker]

AB,

I think you may be mistaken about the Czech Republic.

Then you think wrongly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Czech_Republic

Good enough, Alan?

[Sassy]

It is agape love not Eros Love. Look up the difference.

Nobody ever mentioned agape or eros until you, for some utterly bizarre known-only-to-yourself reason, did so. Therefore this is utterly irrelevant.

IRRELEVANT because you say so... Nah don't think so.

More like you cannot discuss it because your knowledge don't go that far.

You believe and do everything from what you personally want to believe.

No I don't. I'm not able to choose what I believe.

Then we would be all robots and believe the same thing... Do you purposely ignore that fact so your rose tinted spectles don't have to come off or steam up?

But agape love is very different as it is a selfless love not a selfish love as Eros.

Back to the irrelevance.
[/quote]

Nah back to your ignorance and incapability of discussing the real elements which show you to be lacking when it comes to the reality of Christian religion and Gods love. You example the eros love very clearly.

[floo]

Sass you are obviously talking about yourself where ignorance and lack of knowledge is concerned!

[Alan Burns]

AB,

I think you may be mistaken about the Czech Republic.

Then you think wrongly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Czech_Republic

Good enough, Alan?

The article seems to be based on the results of a question in a recent census, but the Prague meeting shows that there is still a substanial Christian presence there.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The article seems to be based on the results of a question in a recent census, but the Prague meeting shows that there is still a substanial Christian presence there.

Depends what you mean by "substantial", but if you mean "significant" as I assume you do because you brought it up in relation to the religiosity of the Czech Republic then no it doesn't. As a percentage of the population (c10.5m), the 23,000 you refer to is about 2.23%. Even then there's no evidence that those who hosted christians were themselves necessarily christians too. You'd be better off sticking with the facts which show a higher level of religiosity than your anecdote suggests, albeit that it doesn't change the lager picture of the CR being substantially secular.